dvd recorders how are you able to recoder anything?

bill page <magicbilly384@msn.com> has sent you the following web link:

http://discussions.consumerreports.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messa
ges&webtag=cr-0403eltelevi&tid=5667

i ask you  why have dvd recoder if you can not recoder v shows or
movies or home movies ?
whats the perpuse?

talk about magic stage trick  to make money for the wrong way reasons
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DVD players/recorders:  DVD Recorders with hard drives


From:  Robert_Perron 7/23/07 10:03 AM 5667.1
To:  All (1 of 24)

What has happened to DVD recorders with hard drives? I have a
Panasonic "DMR EH50" with an 80 GB hard drive. It has been great for
storing recorded material. Lately it is acting up ( very slow and
erratic in responding to "Direct navigator" to programs recorded on
hard drive) and I began to search for a new DVD Recorder and I cannot
find any  brand of DVD recorders with HARD DRIVES to purchase. I sent
an Email to Panasonic asking about this and they answered by informing
me that they no longer design DVD recorders with hard drives. Does
anyone know what is going on?
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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 7/24/07 4:40 PM 5667.2 in reply to 5667.1
To:  Robert_Perron (2 of 24)

The Copyright Protection built-in via HDMI cabling has begun--also,
recall that after last Spring, the FCC required that these all have
digital tuners but until Feb 09, these would also need analog, too.
( NOT to be confused with free Over-The-Air "HD" )

One solution is to buy TIVO Ser 3 w/ dual tuners @ $799 and about
$15 / month forever--only 90 days warranty on labor & NO extra /
extended available from them, either.

There is latest new TIVOs ( pending August ) "HD" hard drive unit at @
$299 but very little data available yet---fee = ??/mo.

Other solution is to "rent" hard drive dual tuner unit from local
cable source--does NOT have to be bought--about $15/mo--maint /
repairs on them, of course.

BUT, satellites' similar units--DISH's VIP-622 dual tuner, etc.-
MUST BE " LEASED "--again, $$$$ more / month.

Either way, our ' old days ' are somewhat gone for now.
It may change as we get closer to Feb '09...who knows?
These newer units ARE in usage in Japan, etc..

everett whitney-edited @ 4:56 for---

HDMI Copyright Protection is NOT for first viewing, etc..
Intended for subsequent usage/distribution, etc.. without proper
royalty payments, etc.. Much more to this issue, naturally

Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 7/24/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
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From:  Robert_Perron 7/26/07 8:54 AM 5667.3 in reply to 5667.2
To:  EVERETT_WHITNEY (3 of 24)

Thanks for clearing that up very well. Between copyright wars and the
war that is in full swing between Blueray and HDD the consumer is
frozen in his tracks as far as purchasing any new equipment. I suppose
it would be best to rent the DVR sevice from my cable company and wait
for the dust to settle on all this.
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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 7/26/07 9:14 AM 5667.4 in reply to 5667.3
To:  Robert_Perron (4 of 24)

Hi ( back )---

Thank's for "post"---I definitely agree / did so for us...
our local cable company happened to use Scientific Atlanta's
very refined 8300HD , with 160GB hard drive as well as those dual
tuners / record two while watching a third different one (previously-
recorded) / P.I.P. / HDMI /both optical & digital Coaxial outputs for
surround sound feeds /aux 120V outlet /etc.---pretty much the same as
that TIVO SER 3 and, at that $799 + no extra warranty, who dares ???
Good Luck ! everett whitney--P.S.

Also has regular ( 5 ) RCA Component feeds for HDTVs w/o HDMI, as
well.)

Edited 7/26/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
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From:  A_LICHTENBERGER 8/3/07 4:51 PM 5667.5 in reply to 5667.2
To:  EVERETT_WHITNEY (5 of 24)

I don't quite follow you. There is a copyright law which prevents the
companies to adding a hard drive unit to 'copy' the electronic
information, but it is still OK that they design a unit where you can
copy it to a DVD?... and the copywrite law has something to do with
cables?  I would enjoy more info on this! I had begun thinking along
some sort of strong arm tactics in the industry to force folks to TIVO
like products. I personally don't want to rent a TIVO product when I
am going to have to purchase a DVD player anyway...

Does anyone know of third party hard drive products that one can hook
up to the output of ones DVD recorder/player to capture to an external
hard drive. Or does anyone have advice as to whether one can take a
DVD that has recorded material from a DVD player and get it onto a
computer drive for better and easier editing..

THANKSs

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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 8/3/07 5:14 PM 5667.6 in reply to 5667.5
To:  A_LICHTENBERGER (6 of 24)

Hi A.---

Didn't mean to "mix' you up--that Copyright Protection is,
unfortunately a part of the rules of equipment using ' HDMI ' as it's
connection means....the main 'sticking point' is the copying from a
broadcast source..(hard drive, etc.)....via HDMI.... to a "permanent
disc"...that's a NO.

Also, do please see Michael Laborde's great coverages ...with advance
scan.....one of his precisely about computer + software is
at ...DVD...# 5706.3.....July 29.
e.w.

Edited 8/3/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/3/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/3/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/3/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/3/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
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From:  Michael_LaBorde 8/3/07 5:31 PM 5667.7 in reply to 5667.5
To:  A_LICHTENBERGER (7 of 24)

Unfortunately the whole situation with recording programming has
gotten very complicated in the last couple of years.  The content
owners (basically the movie studios) have become very concerned about
piracy (probably justifiably) and are doing everything they can to
prevent it.  Part of what they have done is to see that new
technologies that allow very high quality recording (basically from
DVD and high definition broadcast, cable/satellite and HD disks) is
severely limited.  When the new HDMI cable standard was being
established which would allow high quality audio and video to be
carried over a single wire, the studios made sure that it included a
component called HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)
which is designed to prevent the signal from the cited sources from
either being recorded at all, or if allowed, reduced to the level of
current DVD at best.  The new DVD recorders don't even have HDMI
inputs as a couple of posters here pointed out.

This is one of the reasons we haven't seen a high definition disk
recorder yet in the U.S.  Essentially, it would only be good for HD
purposes for making HD DVDs from your own high definition camera
material.  So far, not to many people have high definition video
cameras.

You can, with some computer skills, record from some DVRs to your
computer and then use that to make DVDs.  Also, some of the newest
cable/satellite company supplied DVRs have provisions for an external
hard drive to be attached for extra capacity and archiving.  These
though are only enabled with the your DVRs.  You could take the hard
drive from one DVR to another in your house but not attach them to
your computer or take them to someone else's house and attach to their
DVR.  The signals recorded are encoded to prevent this.

Basically, this is all because the content owners really want to kill
off permanent recording.

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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 8/3/07 6:31 PM 5667.8 in reply to 5667.7
To:  Michael_LaBorde (8 of 24)

Hi Michael---

A million " thank you "s, ....I was obviously only making the waters
more muddy !!!!
everett whitney

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From:  Michael_LaBorde 8/3/07 8:41 PM 5667.9 in reply to 5667.8
To:  EVERETT_WHITNEY (9 of 24)

Everett, I admire your enthusiasm for the topics discussed here.  I
think you do a lot to get people excited about the subjects at hand.
I mainly try to educate people and fill in the gaps.  All of this new
technology is puzzling to most people.  Some of it is pretty close to
rocket science.  I just hope I can simplify things for people and help
to reduce some of the confusion.  Most of these people who ask
questions here haven't bought a television in years and since they
bought their last set the whole world has turned upside down.
Anything we can do to help them is a plus.

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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 8/3/07 8:51 PM 5667.10 in reply to 5667.9
To:  Michael_LaBorde (10 of 24)

Hi Michael--

I agree with you sincerely & will keep a shaker of salt more handy to
put on my "tail feathers" to keep things more
calm ! Honestly, I do see your point & " thank you ."
everett whitney

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From:  A_LICHTENBERGER 8/4/07 9:17 AM 5667.11 in reply to 5667.7
To:  Michael_LaBorde (11 of 24)

Thanks for the clear description of the cabling/protection in regards
to the resulting effective ban of hard drives from consumer DVRs.  I
personally would mostly enjoy having a HD in the DVR in order to
either record multiple (regular) TV shows when I am not home or at
night in order to watch them later (and then delete them from the hard
drive without ever copying them off the HD) or to offload my home
movies either from old VHS tapes or from my camcorder onto the HD in
order to edit etc (and then copy to DVD). So  I am actually not the
type of consumer/user that is being targeted by these restrictive
steps/rules- oh well!

I do wonder why the DVR manufacturers don't have a simple factoid
blurb on their website briefly describing the technology and why they
are not including HD in their units. I had called a couple
manufacturers (Pioneer, Toshiba, Panasonic etc) in the Spring when I
couldn't find any of the highly rated CR DVRs with HD in stores and
was met, as a number of folks have also noted, with answers ranging
from 'they were not big sellers' to 'we didn't expect the high demand
and are now designing next generation units'. Transparency- its
lacking in politics and everywhere else apparently. So do the DVD
manufacturers not think folks are bright enough to understand, that
its better to keep the consumer in the dark rather than explain why
they can't include a feature many folks would like to have, or?

Back to the technical issue of what is being 'protected'. I have the
understanding that movies on commercial DVDs and  movies coming from
HBO etc are already protected by their own electronic/coding and
wouldn't be able to be copied to a HD anyway (i.e., if one tries to
copy an HBO movie onto a VCR, you get mush playing it back). If I have
this right, then what is being protected here... TV shows and the
'owners' to the rights ability to sell season 1,2 and 3 on DVDs at a
later date? (really, this would drive it??).  Personally I think that
folks would be more apt to become fans of a show, and hence would be
more apt to become a 'religious' watcher if they could periodically
capture by HD the shows they might otherwise miss.... and therefore
become that sort of fan who wants to authorized season #3 with all the
extras etc.

Wonder if CR will talk about any of this when they get around to
rating DVRs next time?

THANKS AGAIN,

Art





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From:  Patrick_Wilson 8/8/07 1:38 AM 5667.12 in reply to 5667.1
To:  Robert_Perron (12 of 24)

I purchased a Panasonic DMR E95H over two years ago, somewhat based on
years of satisfaction with various other Panasonic products, as well
as Consumer Reports DVR reviews. Boy, what a disappointment in terms
of reliability and Panasonic customer service! I have had the unit in
for service three times and, in the process, lost programs I had spent
time editing on the hard drive. (I am far from being alone; through
online searches, I discovered a couple of forums that discuss various
problems with Panasonic DVRs. The forums are very useful in
troubleshooting and suggesting alternatives to avoid taking the unit
in for servicing.)

Now, I am quick to point out that when the unit functions, it is
everything I wanted in terms of editing and burning disks. The unit I
purchased is now a few years old. Additionally, I don't know to what
extend other brands of DVRs are also plagued with reliability issues
(but wish Consumer Reports would better look into this and caution
readers as appropriate).

To directly respond to your question, besides issues with competing
formats, I suspect that insufficient development of reliable
technology with DVR hard-drive units has made it a pain for
manufacture--or at least Panasonic--to sustain current product lines.

Edited 8/8/07   by  Patrick_Wilson
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From:  Robert_Perron 8/8/07 7:05 AM 5667.13 in reply to 5667.12
To:  Patrick_Wilson (13 of 24)

Can you direct me to some of the forums??

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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 8/8/07 2:43 PM 5667.14 in reply to 5667.13
To:  Robert_Perron (14 of 24)

Look at all of Michael LaBorde's very many " posts " here
in ..".DVD,Recorders...".one is # 5667.7....( goes 1 thru 11 )...
he also has done very many more...Computer software, .....
Edited 8/8/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/8/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
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From:  Robert_Perron 8/10/07 8:54 AM 5667.15 in reply to 5667.14
To:  EVERETT_WHITNEY (15 of 24)

Pulled the plug on my NON operating EH50 and went to Cablevision
store. Was given a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR. (No charge for unit.
$9.95 a month for the use.). Easy to hook-up. Great to use but I still
miss the ability to burn a show or movie to DVD.

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From:  EVERETT_WHITNEY 8/10/07 9:20 AM 5667.16 in reply to 5667.15
To:  Robert_Perron (16 of 24)

'Morning Robert !!

Many thanks for your "post"---- I realize that it's been a
day oy two since the initial one.....BUT, I'd say that you HAVE ended
up with one of the VERY best of all the various
"HD" recording units available, including that excellent
TIVO ser 3 unit!! Plus, imagine how many ($9.95/mo) it would require
to equate to that $799...ignoring it's $15.mo!

I, too, become "vexed" about not being able to simply
"postpone" watching something via recording instead---
for years, we kept 3 VCRs 'hot' all the time. BUT, that was
then & now is Vastly different, huh ???

Thanks again for the update--do enjoy !! e.w.

edited @ 5: 03 to add P.S......

Not very efficient BUT we have a stereo VCR to which that
S.A. 8300HD does successfully transfer---one of those 'choices'
just before 'erase' on their menu....

Edited 8/10/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
Edited 8/10/07   by  EVERETT_WHITNEY
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From:  Deb_Belleau 8/24/07 11:23 AM 5667.17 in reply to 5667.7
To:  Michael_LaBorde (17 of 24)

Perhaps this is a very naive question but would you be able to take
one of those "portable" hard drives that connect using a usb port and
use the dvd recorder to directly record to the hard drive?

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From:  Michael_LaBorde 8/24/07 11:46 AM 5667.18 in reply to 5667.17
To:  Deb_Belleau (18 of 24)

You might if the recorder had a USB port and if that port provided
output and if the output was enabled through the recorder and the
recorder had a provision to allow you to send that output to another
device.  That's a lot of ifs.  Has anybody implemented this?  I really
don't know since I have not looked at specific DVD recorders and their
specifications.  I suspect the likelihood would be slightly higher
with Firewire connectivity rather than USB but I have no idea whether
anyone has enabled that on a DVD recorder either. Possibly someone
else here can answer whether an recorders can do this.
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From:  Trevor_Crowley 9/21/07 10:03 PM 5667.19 in reply to 5667.5
To:  A_LICHTENBERGER (19 of 24)

I do not have TIVO available in Canada but we have HD hardrives built
into the cable box so you are free to copy the HD material but they
are not equipmented with the ability to burn your program.  I do not
believe the cable companies want you to have that abilty.  If you have
a satellite system you of course can record it to your external
harddrive and at the same time record your program onto your DVD
recorder and make a disk of that program for later use.  One
appiication I do is record a food program,,,remove the commercials and
burn a copy for myself to use on a portable DVD Player on the patio
and watch it while I do my barbecuing.

As of yet I have not seen a recorder with a HDMI input to
record,,,perhaps that is down the road.  You have HDMI outputs on
satellites and DVD players and recorders but,,,no inputs.



Hope this helps

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From:  Joan_Espenship 7/25/08 10:15 AM 5667.20 in reply to 5667.9
To:  Michael_LaBorde (20 of 24)

I am one of the ones "hanging upside down" in this electronic world!
And I am determined to transfer my old videos 8, hi 8, and dvc
camcorder films onto DVD.  I have the camcorders to play them.  I also
want to transfer old VHS tapes of home movies and I am now trying to
figure out what DVD recorder to buy to do this.  I can wait until
after Feb. 2009 if that gives me a better selection.  If not, what
features shall I look for?  I have cable TV.    Thank-you!    Joan
Espenship





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