cool thanks for info on the pendragons
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Datum: 14.03.2009 05:17
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Datum: 14.03.2009 05:17
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bill page <magicbilly384@msn.com> has sent you the following web link: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magic/browse_thread/thread/ff70494a57900 7e6# JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us Forum Index Register Members List Events Tags Help JREF Forum » General Topics » Conjuror's Corner What do you think about the masked magician? User Name Remember Me? Password Notices Advertisement Help Menu Frequently Asked Questions Tutorials and Guides How To.... Guides Signatures and Avatars Post Formatting Codes Help Forum Membership Agreement New Members 'Welcome Thread' New Members 'Hints & Tips' The Moderating Team Contact Us Site Map Event Calendars JREF Events Member Organized Events General Events JREF Forum Site Guide Links JREF Topics General Members Only Forum Home Page Welcome! 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Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. Tags masked magician Page 1 of 2 1 2 > Thread Tools 19th November 2008, 12:12 PM #1 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 What do you think about the masked magician? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- On American TV there is a weekly show where a masked magician exposes magic tricks just for the sake of exposing them. Many of these tricks are fairly new and could/should be purchased. This masked rascal has exposed a number of the few effects I perform, maybe poorly, but gosh darn it I don't want some idiot who has nothing better to do than watch the masked magician every week and then watch me perform a slieght I worked hours on only to state, "I watched the masked magician and this is how it's done." The availability of knowledge on the web doesn't bother me because someone has to proactively look for it. Putting every magical secret, and I mean every secret, on TV for bored people to soak up and then not be later entertained by watching a live performance aggravates me. Personally, I have yet to not get away with an effect because of the masked magician but I suspect it is only a matter of time. I've thought about mastering (well doing my best at least) four effects with water bottles for next summer -- this idiot has diminished my enthusiasm. I am interested in your thoughts on the issue. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Senex; 19th November 2008 at 12:13 PM. Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 19th November 2008, 02:12 PM #2 Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 7,463 I guess it's the same bias as the issue of mp3s and the record companies. Since I do not work for a record company and I don't suffer monetary loses, I like being able to download mp3s so obviously I'm biased. Since I'm not a magician, I actually enjoy being revealed the secrets behind these tricks because I am not affected negatively. Once again, biased and proud of it. Ron_Tomkins View Public Profile Visit Ron_Tomkins's homepage! Find More Posts by Ron_Tomkins 20th November 2008, 12:59 AM #3 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 The whole idea pisses me off. Making a living from making others' much more difficult. That's what the world's about though I guess. If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 02:32 AM #4 AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,384 Quote: The availability of knowledge on the web doesn't bother me because someone has to proactively look for it. Excellent point. Quote: Putting every magical secret, and I mean every secret, on TV for bored people to soak up I don't think most people who watch the programme will remember how the tricks are done a few weeks later. They are probably only half watching the TV. Does seem a pretty crappy and unscrupulous idea for a show though. __________________ John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. AgeGap View Public Profile Find More Posts by AgeGap 20th November 2008, 02:40 AM #5 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins I guess it's the same bias as the issue of mp3s and the record companies. Since I do not work for a record company and I don't suffer monetary loses, I like being able to download mp3s so obviously I'm biased. This has similarities to stealing music but it isn't the same. The masked magician does not explain how to perform the magic, he only exposes the method (you can't watch the TV show and start performing magic yourself, unlike if you went to ellusionist.com and payed for a video where the fellow who came up with the effect, hopefully, gets a cut). It's more like listening to a bootleg song that will prohibit you from enjoying the original if you should ever hear it. Quote: Since I'm not a magician, I actually enjoy being revealed the secrets behind these tricks because I am not affected negatively. Once again, biased and proud of it. I have to admit, although I always hated the idea of the masked magician, I hate him more now that he has expanded into exposing close up tricks. Originally Posted by Legend If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. The only reason you may not end up incarcerated on murder charges is a big part of his shtick is he wears gloves. Believe me, if the show is renewed another year, the gloves will come off and the classic pass will be exposed (especially if Blaine or Angel use it on one of their shows). __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 20th November 2008, 03:02 AM #6 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. Why? The details are already trivialy avialible. Most forms of IP other than trademark expire eventualy. Fail to see why card tricks should be any different. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 20th November 2008, 03:20 AM #7 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 On TV people are watching, on the internet you have to look it up to find it out. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 03:25 AM #8 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend On TV people are watching, on the internet you have to look it up to find it out. So? Someone who is just passivly consumeing is even less likely to recall any of it than someone who goes looking for a youtube vid or the like. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 20th November 2008, 03:39 AM #9 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 I highly doubt that they will forget how it's done. If someone watches how Zig-Zag Lady is performed, then a year later, they see it again, they'll remember. Even if they don't immediately, they will later on. Also, even if they couldn't remember it, when they see it, the amazement of the revelation or effect is lost. The trick dies to them. Also, it doesn't require mass amounts of attention to get how the trick is done. If it's a stage illusion, there is usually one main secret to it. With cards, there are usually a whole set. It's a stupid show. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 03:44 PM #10 Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,135 At TAM2, Penn told a story that went something like this: I was a a bar in Vegas talking to a couple of women and this ****bag came over with a woman and said, "Hey, Penn, tell her that I'm really the Masked Magician!" and I said, "I don't who the ****you are ***hole, **** off." Jeff Corey View Public Profile Find More Posts by Jeff Corey 20th November 2008, 10:15 PM #11 The Professor Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 576 The masked magician has just exposed an effect of a person whom I've enjoyed communicating with over the internet. It must feel bad to have someone show the secrets that you invented on the TV for all to see, while you get Nothing and the masked magician gets paid for Your invention. I hope someone sues Valentino! The Professor View Public Profile Find More Posts by The Professor 21st November 2008, 12:56 AM #12 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Well said, mate. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 02:20 AM #13 PhantomWolf Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 4,731 As a viewer, I watch purely for the entertainment, it doesn't really matter if I know, or can figure out how someone does something (often if you look close enough you can see the practisioner's trick, I've even spotted a few of Cris Angel's and he's usually pretty hard.) The fun is in how well they do it. I mean, come on, everyone already knows that there is a sleight of hand to the trick, that it's not real magic, so the entire thing comes down to how well the magician pulls that trick off, not if the audience either know, or can figure out, how it was done. Heck if you are good enough that you can pull it off in front of people that know how you did it and leave them thinking, "well I thought I knew" that's even better. __________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page PhantomWolf View Public Profile Visit PhantomWolf's homepage! Find More Posts by PhantomWolf 21st November 2008, 03:51 AM #14 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Criss Angel is pathetic. He is no more of a magician than by large toe. He has minimal skills. If you were a magician you'd understand. He frequently uses stooges to get the reaction he wants rather than an honest one. He uses camera tricks and generally doesn't actually use magic requiring any level of skill that a 3 y/o couldn't pull off. Also, the trick RELIES on how well the magician pulls his trick off, however that's not what the majority or laymen would want to see. The fact is that they want to be amazed, if magic does that for them, great, magic works. If not, then magic isn't impressive. However, if you're impressed with how well the magician pulls the magic off, you aren't alone and that is most certainly fine. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 07:26 AM #15 Shevek-72 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cologne, Germany Posts: 147 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way deminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. Shevek-72 View Public Profile Find More Posts by Shevek-72 21st November 2008, 02:52 PM #16 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Legend Criss Angel is pathetic. He is no more of a magician than by large toe. He has minimal skills. If you were a magician you'd understand. He frequently uses stooges to get the reaction he wants rather than an honest one. He uses camera tricks and generally doesn't actually use magic requiring any level of skill that a 3 y/o couldn't pull off. Alex. We agree the masked magician is a shameful concept. Chris Angel is a bit more complicated. Yes, stooges and camera angles have been involovled, but he creates more interest in the field of magic than would have been if he never was on TV. I'm not saying he is a hall of fame magician but outside of people starting to be skeptical of TV effects -- he does more good than harm. Originally Posted by Shevek-72 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way diminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. You shouldn't know about false thumbs. You have something in common with my mom. She never liked magic. My best friend in high school/ college studied engineering and is now an engineer. His buddies were the roughest on my equipment when I handed it out for examination. They were one of my favorite audiences. If I can put a coin through a beer can right in front of your nose next summer, you should understand it was a trick and think about the possibilities on your own instead of remembering what some ass learned and decided to expose for no other reason than making money from exposing the moves another person worked hard and long to make work. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 21st November 2008, 02:53 PM #17 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by The Professor I hope someone sues Valentino! For what? geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 21st November 2008, 03:04 PM #18 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Senex You shouldn't know about false thumbs. The knowlage is pretty useless. The magician knows why they are doing you won't be able to spot it. Quote: If I can put a coin through a beer can right in front of your nose next summer, you should understand it was a trick and think about the possibilities on your own instead of remembering what some ass learned and decided to expose for no other reason than making money from exposing the moves another person worked hard and long to make work. So you would argue that if someone sees a liquid crystal being prepared through a Suzuki reaction you should work out how it is done yourself (which is unlikely to be posible) rather than useing a book written by someone making money out of the thousands of hourse people have spent optomiseing that class of reactions? geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 21st November 2008, 03:44 PM #19 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Quote: We agree the masked magician is a shameful concept. Chris Angel is a bit more complicated. Yes, stooges and camera angles have been involovled, but he creates more interest in the field of magic than would have been if he never was on TV. I'm not saying he is a hall of fame magician but outside of people starting to be skeptical of TV effects -- he does more good than harm. Attracting people to magic is good, escept he attracts these type of people to magic: "OMG lyk how did he dun dat? teh grl lyk jst disaprd i gonna lrn da trik now bye mo-fos" Unfortunate, but true. Alex. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Legend; 21st November 2008 at 03:45 PM. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 05:28 PM #20 Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Looking for Fountain of Smart Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 16,079 I've watched a few of the shows and I don't think it will affect my enjoyment of magic much at all. After all, I did realize that it was just a gimmick, not real magick. Magicians will just have to keep ahead of him, I guess. ~~ Paul __________________ Just because you're not going with the status quo doesn't mean you're open-minded. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Public Profile Find More Posts by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos 21st November 2008, 06:50 PM #21 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by geni So you would argue that if someone sees a liquid crystal being prepared through a Suzuki reaction you should work out how it is done yourself (which is unlikely to be posible) rather than useing a book written by someone making money out of the thousands of hourse people have spent optomiseing that class of reactions? I'm saying I enjoy a suzuki reaction as much as the next guy I will break down the reaction independently, on my own dime, each and every time I feel it necessary. Originally Posted by Legend Attracting people to magic is good, escept he attracts these type of people to magic: "OMG lyk how did he dun dat? teh grl lyk jst disaprd i gonna lrn da trik now bye mo-fos" Just because I brought her back to my tent after the performance doesn't mean anything you should be concerned about. Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos I've watched a few of the shows and I don't think it will affect my enjoyment of magic much at all. After all, I did realize that it was just a gimmick, not real magick. Magicians will just have to keep ahead of him, I guess. ~~ Paul This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public. It's wrong. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 21st November 2008, 07:27 PM #22 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 I'm still getting used to the skeptic cryptic, so I have no idea what tone, theme, rating (R 18+ ??) or meaning you had when addressing my post. I know...we darn beginners! Don't feel you must explain... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Legend; 21st November 2008 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Grammar Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 25th November 2008, 01:19 PM #23 Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Looking for Fountain of Smart Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 16,079 Originally Posted by Senex This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public. It's wrong. It's more like inventing something and not being able to patent it. The masked magician isn't copying the schtick, patter, gestures, etc., is he? He's just using the same gimmick. Does anyone know who he is? ~~ Paul __________________ Just because you're not going with the status quo doesn't mean you're open-minded. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Public Profile Find More Posts by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos 25th November 2008, 03:26 PM #24 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 I'm kinda' mixed on this. If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed. If it is a trick that is used by a number of different performers, and that you can learn by buying it from a magic shop/supplier, I don't really have a big problem with it. Skilled magicians won't be greatly affected by this, I don't think. I know the secret to a lot of different tricks now...but I still enjoy watching a skilled magician pull them off. In fact, I greatly enjoy knowing how its done, and trying to watch to spot where he pulls of his sleight of hand, or how he misdirects the audience. In fact, I'd say that my enjoyment of any particular magician has far more to do with his skill and showmanship, than with knowing (or not knowing) how a trick is done. A boring magician is boring, regardless of whether or not I know how he's doing it. While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes: 1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest. 2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised! Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 25th November 2008, 07:43 PM #25 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 The question is so much less complicated that the need for a huge discussion: Why the TV show? It's just stupid. The entire idea is demeaning to many magicians. It's not about saying, "Oh well I lost some tricks," but instead, "Oh my God, I lost some tricks!" Putting it simply, it's just nasty and thoughtless. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 26th November 2008, 01:53 AM #26 AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,384 Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Does anyone know who he is? ~~ Paul Wikipedia says Val Valentino but if this is a new series it may be a different actor. From Wikipedia Quote: The Art And Secrets Of Magic DVD Recently, a new DVD was released starring the Masked Magician, teaching people how to do simple magic tricks. As each new DVD is released the tricks will become more challenging. There will be a total of four DVDs. If someone got the the DVD and filmed themselves performing the same tricks then they could stick it on YouTube. What would he think about revealing tricks then? __________________ John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. AgeGap View Public Profile Find More Posts by AgeGap 26th November 2008, 08:50 PM #27 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Wolfman I'm kinda' mixed on this. If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed. That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties Quote: While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes: 1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest. 2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised! Neither of these address the problem of the masked magician making a living on others inovations. Quote: Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have. I can't wait to see your act __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 26th November 2008, 11:11 PM #28 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 Originally Posted by Senex I can't wait to see your act I speak from the very comfortable position of not being a magician, and therefore not being in any way affected by this...and I fully acknowledge that However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows. Penn & Teller are a brilliant example of this, in my opinion. They can actually show you, intentionally, how a trick is done, and remove all the mystery from it...and yet still leave you saying, "Wow, what an amazing show". They understand very well the difference between relying on the tricks, and relying on actual showmanship. Magicians who really know how to entertain -- and not just how to do a bunch of tricks -- shouldn't face any serious problems as a result of this show. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 27th November 2008, 01:30 AM #29 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic. Penn and Teller reveal tiny MINISCULE sleight of hand tricks which the majority work because they look great, rather than the audience not knowing how they're done. Quote: However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows. That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done. It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 27th November 2008, 04:17 AM #30 Leif Roar Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,838 *shrugs* I don't see any reason why magicians should have and special right to secrecy. Stage magic is entertainment, and if revealing how a magic trick is performed is entertaining to an audience ... well, that's mission accomplished. So it makes your job as a performer more difficult. And? The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever- more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market. Life's not convenient, and the Masked Magician doesn't have any more obligation to make your job easy than you do his. __________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005 Leif Roar View Public Profile Visit Leif Roar's homepage! Find More Posts by Leif Roar 27th November 2008, 05:11 PM #31 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Quote: The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever-more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market. Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well. This isn't a market-place we're talking about. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 27th November 2008, 07:13 PM #32 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Senex That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties Because they failed to patent it. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 27th November 2008, 07:16 PM #33 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well. This isn't a market-place we're talking about. Alex. It is. Mostly falls under the trade secret area of IP. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 28th November 2008, 12:36 AM #34 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Again, things would change if you guys were magicians. Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets. The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 28th November 2008, 02:32 AM #35 Leif Roar Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,838 Originally Posted by Legend Again, things would change if you guys were magicians. That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected. Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. Quote: Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets. The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber. If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? __________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005 Leif Roar View Public Profile Visit Leif Roar's homepage! Find More Posts by Leif Roar 28th November 2008, 02:57 AM #36 Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 40,028 Originally Posted by Shevek-72 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way deminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that. I like to learn how things are done, indeed when I've had some magic tricks explained to me it has only increased my enjoyment of seeing that trick performed again because I am trying to see if I can spot the trick of the trick being done. If there is a concern that these types of show are revealing unique IP well I would suggest it is time magicians got up to speed on the various ways there are to protect such IP and commercial knowledge. __________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Darat View Public Profile Visit Darat's homepage! Find More Posts by Darat 28th November 2008, 04:08 AM #37 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Originally Posted by Leif Roar That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected. Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? Just a thought. How about, before you make assumptions about what I'm thinking, you shutup and listen? It could just gain you some respect from people. Quote: Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. What a stupid comment. OF COURSE my opinion would change. I would have little respect for magic as a whole and see it from a completely different perspective. One thing that drives me insane, is that when someone who knows a particular topic, is confronted by an adamant other who doesn't, thinking they know all there is to know about the matter. It's more complicated than you'd think. Quote: If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? I'm not catching your drift here. Quote: ad homiens Dd hominems** And the comment in question was not anything but factual. To summarise this particular view: What you're saying is not only aggravating, but stupid, wild and baseless. Accept that when you're involved with something, your opinions do inevitably change, simply because that is the truth. This entire conversation would be completely different if I were to take this to a magic site I'm a member of. As a matter of fact, here are some comments on the site (after I searched the forums) and came up with: Quote: To relate it to the IBM, my local ring seems to run like Magic Hat. You jump through a few hoops, prove that youre in it for the magic, and not to become the dreaded Masked Magician From a topic about The Masked Magician, entitled: "Today I died a little bit inside." Quote: It is with great grief that I announce that today, November 8th 2008, about 10 minutes ago, a show called "Os segredos da Magia", in english, "The secrets of Magic", ended it's first episode. Starring the Masked Magician. Quote: In ONE episode I lost SAW and healed and sealed soda can. A friend of mine has already started to recieve SMS saying "I know how you did that trick on YouTube." Quote: How could it be that our dearest and most valuable secrets can be blatantly destroyed like this? Quote: A girl that started THIS WEEK in magic, knowing nothing more than 2 palms and a swing cut, already hates him. Quote: I can't believe this. I just died a little bit. Monday I'll probably have to put up with idiots full of joy, because they saw a traitor and a fraud reveal how I did my string through neck trick. I swear I'll strangle anyone who mentions this show. Quote: Revealing older stage illusions is bad enough but those two tricks are still on the market, private domain, and commonly performed. I understand that you gotta make a living and if you absolutely must reveal tricks to make money, (I don't know how you would think of doing that for a career) then do something that won't decimate somebody's act/reputation. Quote: Like, I was gobsmacked. When he started doing Needle through arm, I simply walked out of the living room... Quote: I am glad to live somewhere where we cant see these kind of shows on tv. But still... I would sure like to kick him, %*#&$#*&!! A personal favourite: Quote: Today I got this comment "Hey did you see that magic show last friday? I got to tell you, not to offend you or any magician like you, but magic is a lot of bull****." And to think an arrow missed his heart for 4 cm... Quote: Has there been assassination attempts on this guy yet? Another goodie: Quote: Don't you just hate it, though? When someone like that just blatantly reveals stuff, and you just can't do anything about it? You lose, and you will never win. We can't tell spectators, "This guy is a poor magician who can't keep secrets" and whatnot. It sucks. Somebody should give this Val Valentino a good smack on the head and a kick in the you-know-what, and then tell him, "Look, you're putting many other guys out of work because of your stupid show." But then, that's probably never going to happen. And another: Quote: I still think someone should shoot this guy The boldened text was for those who don't read all of the quotes. I thought I had seen stupid comments in my life, but this surpasses them all. "If we were magicians our arguments would be the same". Honestly... Alex. P.S. I hope to God I misread what you wrote. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 29th November 2008, 08:20 AM #38 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Darat I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that. Movie special effects are more likely to be protected by patent (although not the more straightforward ones. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 29th November 2008, 09:22 PM #39 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 Originally Posted by Legend It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic. Oh, geez, another one of those. "You're not entitled to have an opinion, and any opinion you have has no validity, because you don't belong to the group that I belong to". Like women who claim that men don't have a right to an opinion on the abortion debate, because they'll never be pregnant. Get over yourself. Two points I'll raise. First of all, the vast majority of magicians are not creating their own tricks. They are buying their tricks from other people, or learning them from books/videos. If you're going to argue that the masked magician shouldn't be allowed to earn money from tricks that were invented by other people, then why the hell should other magicians be allowed to? Aren't you, in effect, a whole bunch of parasites? There's a very small number of magicians who actually create new tricks; and a whole bunch of magicians who simply copy and imitate them. In short -- if it is wrong for the Masked Magician to make money fby using tricks that other people created...why is it right for you or any other magician to make money from using tricks that other people created? Hell, let's trademark all the tricks, and only let those who invented them use them (or license them out to others, with fees and royalties being paid for all uses of those tricks)...and then let's see how long the majority of "magicians" actually survive. No wonder you get so upset about someone revealing the secrets...you don't have the ability to actually create something of your own. You are entirely reliant on being able to copy other people. (note -- this is addressed very specifically to Legend, in response to the arrogance he displayed in his response...it doesn't reflect my real feelings about most magicians ) Second, I have not seen any argument that has actually demonstrated, in verifiable terms, any damage that has been done by the Masked Magician's revelations. So far as I can tell, good magic acts and talented magicians are still getting lots of business, and having popular shows. I myself have watched a number of these shows -- both the Masked Magician, and a variety of videos on YouTube -- and it has not in any way affected my enjoyment of magic, or my desire to see it. Nor, in talking to others, have I found it to affect their interest in magic in any negative manner. Quote: That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done. REALLY!!! Not only am I not entitled to any opinion, but you also know what my opinion would be if I were a magician. Yet, viewing the responses to this over the years, there have been some magicians who've stated either that they don't care about what the Masked Magician does, or that they actually think its a good idea. So your statement doesn't even hold true in actual reality...much less in regards to trying to predict what opinions or attitudes I'd have if I were a magician. Quote: It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening. Alex. And I love it when someone takes a personal opinion, and without anything beyond their own personal opinion to support it, conclude that it is the Truth, and the only reasonable/possible conclusion. I've found the responses of the majority of magicians here to be quite reasonable and understandable. I may not agree with them entirely -- obviously, my perspective is different as a non-magician, obviously -- but I can sympathize with them. But in your case, my response has nothing whatsoever to do with being a magician. It has to do with the crass arrogance demonstrated, the anti-intellectual and anti-skeptical arguments you use to claim that those who aren't magicians can't have an opinion, or that your personal opinions constitute actual fact. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 29th November 2008, 09:52 PM #40 roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 6,351 I like watching the shows (I've only seen the older specials, not the current series), and I still like watching magic. I took great delight in watching Randi perform some magic in VT, and figuring out how it was done - not based on a direct expose that I saw, but by thinking about the ways he might of manipulated my perception. I.e., the stuff I saw on TV prepared my way of thinking about things. Some of his other stuff I already knew how it was done - it was fun to watch how he did it. As a kid I did some mild magic - cup and balls and the like. No way I could do the routine now. But it never diminished my appreciation of magic. __________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. 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Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. Tags masked magician Page 1 of 2 1 2 > Thread Tools 19th November 2008, 12:12 PM #1 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 What do you think about the masked magician? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- On American TV there is a weekly show where a masked magician exposes magic tricks just for the sake of exposing them. Many of these tricks are fairly new and could/should be purchased. This masked rascal has exposed a number of the few effects I perform, maybe poorly, but gosh darn it I don't want some idiot who has nothing better to do than watch the masked magician every week and then watch me perform a slieght I worked hours on only to state, "I watched the masked magician and this is how it's done." The availability of knowledge on the web doesn't bother me because someone has to proactively look for it. Putting every magical secret, and I mean every secret, on TV for bored people to soak up and then not be later entertained by watching a live performance aggravates me. Personally, I have yet to not get away with an effect because of the masked magician but I suspect it is only a matter of time. I've thought about mastering (well doing my best at least) four effects with water bottles for next summer -- this idiot has diminished my enthusiasm. I am interested in your thoughts on the issue. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Senex; 19th November 2008 at 12:13 PM. Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 19th November 2008, 02:12 PM #2 Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 7,463 I guess it's the same bias as the issue of mp3s and the record companies. Since I do not work for a record company and I don't suffer monetary loses, I like being able to download mp3s so obviously I'm biased. Since I'm not a magician, I actually enjoy being revealed the secrets behind these tricks because I am not affected negatively. Once again, biased and proud of it. Ron_Tomkins View Public Profile Visit Ron_Tomkins's homepage! Find More Posts by Ron_Tomkins 20th November 2008, 12:59 AM #3 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 The whole idea pisses me off. Making a living from making others' much more difficult. That's what the world's about though I guess. If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 02:32 AM #4 AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,384 Quote: The availability of knowledge on the web doesn't bother me because someone has to proactively look for it. Excellent point. Quote: Putting every magical secret, and I mean every secret, on TV for bored people to soak up I don't think most people who watch the programme will remember how the tricks are done a few weeks later. They are probably only half watching the TV. Does seem a pretty crappy and unscrupulous idea for a show though. __________________ John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. AgeGap View Public Profile Find More Posts by AgeGap 20th November 2008, 02:40 AM #5 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins I guess it's the same bias as the issue of mp3s and the record companies. Since I do not work for a record company and I don't suffer monetary loses, I like being able to download mp3s so obviously I'm biased. This has similarities to stealing music but it isn't the same. The masked magician does not explain how to perform the magic, he only exposes the method (you can't watch the TV show and start performing magic yourself, unlike if you went to ellusionist.com and payed for a video where the fellow who came up with the effect, hopefully, gets a cut). It's more like listening to a bootleg song that will prohibit you from enjoying the original if you should ever hear it. Quote: Since I'm not a magician, I actually enjoy being revealed the secrets behind these tricks because I am not affected negatively. Once again, biased and proud of it. I have to admit, although I always hated the idea of the masked magician, I hate him more now that he has expanded into exposing close up tricks. Originally Posted by Legend If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. The only reason you may not end up incarcerated on murder charges is a big part of his shtick is he wears gloves. Believe me, if the show is renewed another year, the gloves will come off and the classic pass will be exposed (especially if Blaine or Angel use it on one of their shows). __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 20th November 2008, 03:02 AM #6 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend If he started revealing how classic card tricks were done, I'd shoot someone. Preferably him. Why? The details are already trivialy avialible. Most forms of IP other than trademark expire eventualy. Fail to see why card tricks should be any different. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 20th November 2008, 03:20 AM #7 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 On TV people are watching, on the internet you have to look it up to find it out. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 03:25 AM #8 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend On TV people are watching, on the internet you have to look it up to find it out. So? Someone who is just passivly consumeing is even less likely to recall any of it than someone who goes looking for a youtube vid or the like. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 20th November 2008, 03:39 AM #9 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 I highly doubt that they will forget how it's done. If someone watches how Zig-Zag Lady is performed, then a year later, they see it again, they'll remember. Even if they don't immediately, they will later on. Also, even if they couldn't remember it, when they see it, the amazement of the revelation or effect is lost. The trick dies to them. Also, it doesn't require mass amounts of attention to get how the trick is done. If it's a stage illusion, there is usually one main secret to it. With cards, there are usually a whole set. It's a stupid show. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 20th November 2008, 03:44 PM #10 Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,135 At TAM2, Penn told a story that went something like this: I was a a bar in Vegas talking to a couple of women and this ****bag came over with a woman and said, "Hey, Penn, tell her that I'm really the Masked Magician!" and I said, "I don't who the ****you are ***hole, **** off." Jeff Corey View Public Profile Find More Posts by Jeff Corey 20th November 2008, 10:15 PM #11 The Professor Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 576 The masked magician has just exposed an effect of a person whom I've enjoyed communicating with over the internet. It must feel bad to have someone show the secrets that you invented on the TV for all to see, while you get Nothing and the masked magician gets paid for Your invention. I hope someone sues Valentino! The Professor View Public Profile Find More Posts by The Professor 21st November 2008, 12:56 AM #12 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Well said, mate. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 02:20 AM #13 PhantomWolf Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 4,731 As a viewer, I watch purely for the entertainment, it doesn't really matter if I know, or can figure out how someone does something (often if you look close enough you can see the practisioner's trick, I've even spotted a few of Cris Angel's and he's usually pretty hard.) The fun is in how well they do it. I mean, come on, everyone already knows that there is a sleight of hand to the trick, that it's not real magic, so the entire thing comes down to how well the magician pulls that trick off, not if the audience either know, or can figure out, how it was done. Heck if you are good enough that you can pull it off in front of people that know how you did it and leave them thinking, "well I thought I knew" that's even better. __________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page PhantomWolf View Public Profile Visit PhantomWolf's homepage! Find More Posts by PhantomWolf 21st November 2008, 03:51 AM #14 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Criss Angel is pathetic. He is no more of a magician than by large toe. He has minimal skills. If you were a magician you'd understand. He frequently uses stooges to get the reaction he wants rather than an honest one. He uses camera tricks and generally doesn't actually use magic requiring any level of skill that a 3 y/o couldn't pull off. Also, the trick RELIES on how well the magician pulls his trick off, however that's not what the majority or laymen would want to see. The fact is that they want to be amazed, if magic does that for them, great, magic works. If not, then magic isn't impressive. However, if you're impressed with how well the magician pulls the magic off, you aren't alone and that is most certainly fine. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 07:26 AM #15 Shevek-72 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cologne, Germany Posts: 147 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way deminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. Shevek-72 View Public Profile Find More Posts by Shevek-72 21st November 2008, 02:52 PM #16 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Legend Criss Angel is pathetic. He is no more of a magician than by large toe. He has minimal skills. If you were a magician you'd understand. He frequently uses stooges to get the reaction he wants rather than an honest one. He uses camera tricks and generally doesn't actually use magic requiring any level of skill that a 3 y/o couldn't pull off. Alex. We agree the masked magician is a shameful concept. Chris Angel is a bit more complicated. Yes, stooges and camera angles have been involovled, but he creates more interest in the field of magic than would have been if he never was on TV. I'm not saying he is a hall of fame magician but outside of people starting to be skeptical of TV effects -- he does more good than harm. Originally Posted by Shevek-72 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way diminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. You shouldn't know about false thumbs. You have something in common with my mom. She never liked magic. My best friend in high school/ college studied engineering and is now an engineer. His buddies were the roughest on my equipment when I handed it out for examination. They were one of my favorite audiences. If I can put a coin through a beer can right in front of your nose next summer, you should understand it was a trick and think about the possibilities on your own instead of remembering what some ass learned and decided to expose for no other reason than making money from exposing the moves another person worked hard and long to make work. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 21st November 2008, 02:53 PM #17 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by The Professor I hope someone sues Valentino! For what? geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 21st November 2008, 03:04 PM #18 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Senex You shouldn't know about false thumbs. The knowlage is pretty useless. The magician knows why they are doing you won't be able to spot it. Quote: If I can put a coin through a beer can right in front of your nose next summer, you should understand it was a trick and think about the possibilities on your own instead of remembering what some ass learned and decided to expose for no other reason than making money from exposing the moves another person worked hard and long to make work. So you would argue that if someone sees a liquid crystal being prepared through a Suzuki reaction you should work out how it is done yourself (which is unlikely to be posible) rather than useing a book written by someone making money out of the thousands of hourse people have spent optomiseing that class of reactions? geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 21st November 2008, 03:44 PM #19 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Quote: We agree the masked magician is a shameful concept. Chris Angel is a bit more complicated. Yes, stooges and camera angles have been involovled, but he creates more interest in the field of magic than would have been if he never was on TV. I'm not saying he is a hall of fame magician but outside of people starting to be skeptical of TV effects -- he does more good than harm. Attracting people to magic is good, escept he attracts these type of people to magic: "OMG lyk how did he dun dat? teh grl lyk jst disaprd i gonna lrn da trik now bye mo-fos" Unfortunate, but true. Alex. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Legend; 21st November 2008 at 03:45 PM. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 21st November 2008, 05:28 PM #20 Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Looking for Fountain of Smart Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 16,079 I've watched a few of the shows and I don't think it will affect my enjoyment of magic much at all. After all, I did realize that it was just a gimmick, not real magick. Magicians will just have to keep ahead of him, I guess. ~~ Paul __________________ Just because you're not going with the status quo doesn't mean you're open-minded. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Public Profile Find More Posts by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos 21st November 2008, 06:50 PM #21 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by geni So you would argue that if someone sees a liquid crystal being prepared through a Suzuki reaction you should work out how it is done yourself (which is unlikely to be posible) rather than useing a book written by someone making money out of the thousands of hourse people have spent optomiseing that class of reactions? I'm saying I enjoy a suzuki reaction as much as the next guy I will break down the reaction independently, on my own dime, each and every time I feel it necessary. Originally Posted by Legend Attracting people to magic is good, escept he attracts these type of people to magic: "OMG lyk how did he dun dat? teh grl lyk jst disaprd i gonna lrn da trik now bye mo-fos" Just because I brought her back to my tent after the performance doesn't mean anything you should be concerned about. Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos I've watched a few of the shows and I don't think it will affect my enjoyment of magic much at all. After all, I did realize that it was just a gimmick, not real magick. Magicians will just have to keep ahead of him, I guess. ~~ Paul This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public. It's wrong. __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 21st November 2008, 07:27 PM #22 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 I'm still getting used to the skeptic cryptic, so I have no idea what tone, theme, rating (R 18+ ??) or meaning you had when addressing my post. I know...we darn beginners! Don't feel you must explain... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Last edited by Legend; 21st November 2008 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Grammar Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 25th November 2008, 01:19 PM #23 Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Looking for Fountain of Smart Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 16,079 Originally Posted by Senex This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public. It's wrong. It's more like inventing something and not being able to patent it. The masked magician isn't copying the schtick, patter, gestures, etc., is he? He's just using the same gimmick. Does anyone know who he is? ~~ Paul __________________ Just because you're not going with the status quo doesn't mean you're open-minded. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Public Profile Find More Posts by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos 25th November 2008, 03:26 PM #24 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 I'm kinda' mixed on this. If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed. If it is a trick that is used by a number of different performers, and that you can learn by buying it from a magic shop/supplier, I don't really have a big problem with it. Skilled magicians won't be greatly affected by this, I don't think. I know the secret to a lot of different tricks now...but I still enjoy watching a skilled magician pull them off. In fact, I greatly enjoy knowing how its done, and trying to watch to spot where he pulls of his sleight of hand, or how he misdirects the audience. In fact, I'd say that my enjoyment of any particular magician has far more to do with his skill and showmanship, than with knowing (or not knowing) how a trick is done. A boring magician is boring, regardless of whether or not I know how he's doing it. While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes: 1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest. 2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised! Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 25th November 2008, 07:43 PM #25 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 The question is so much less complicated that the need for a huge discussion: Why the TV show? It's just stupid. The entire idea is demeaning to many magicians. It's not about saying, "Oh well I lost some tricks," but instead, "Oh my God, I lost some tricks!" Putting it simply, it's just nasty and thoughtless. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 26th November 2008, 01:53 AM #26 AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,384 Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Does anyone know who he is? ~~ Paul Wikipedia says Val Valentino but if this is a new series it may be a different actor. From Wikipedia Quote: The Art And Secrets Of Magic DVD Recently, a new DVD was released starring the Masked Magician, teaching people how to do simple magic tricks. As each new DVD is released the tricks will become more challenging. There will be a total of four DVDs. If someone got the the DVD and filmed themselves performing the same tricks then they could stick it on YouTube. What would he think about revealing tricks then? __________________ John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. AgeGap View Public Profile Find More Posts by AgeGap 26th November 2008, 08:50 PM #27 Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,485 Originally Posted by Wolfman I'm kinda' mixed on this. If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed. That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties Quote: While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes: 1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest. 2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised! Neither of these address the problem of the masked magician making a living on others inovations. Quote: Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have. I can't wait to see your act __________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain Senex View Public Profile Find More Posts by Senex 26th November 2008, 11:11 PM #28 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 Originally Posted by Senex I can't wait to see your act I speak from the very comfortable position of not being a magician, and therefore not being in any way affected by this...and I fully acknowledge that However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows. Penn & Teller are a brilliant example of this, in my opinion. They can actually show you, intentionally, how a trick is done, and remove all the mystery from it...and yet still leave you saying, "Wow, what an amazing show". They understand very well the difference between relying on the tricks, and relying on actual showmanship. Magicians who really know how to entertain -- and not just how to do a bunch of tricks -- shouldn't face any serious problems as a result of this show. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 27th November 2008, 01:30 AM #29 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic. Penn and Teller reveal tiny MINISCULE sleight of hand tricks which the majority work because they look great, rather than the audience not knowing how they're done. Quote: However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows. That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done. It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 27th November 2008, 04:17 AM #30 Leif Roar Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,838 *shrugs* I don't see any reason why magicians should have and special right to secrecy. Stage magic is entertainment, and if revealing how a magic trick is performed is entertaining to an audience ... well, that's mission accomplished. So it makes your job as a performer more difficult. And? The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever- more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market. Life's not convenient, and the Masked Magician doesn't have any more obligation to make your job easy than you do his. __________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005 Leif Roar View Public Profile Visit Leif Roar's homepage! Find More Posts by Leif Roar 27th November 2008, 05:11 PM #31 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Quote: The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever-more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market. Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well. This isn't a market-place we're talking about. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 27th November 2008, 07:13 PM #32 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Senex That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties Because they failed to patent it. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 27th November 2008, 07:16 PM #33 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Legend Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well. This isn't a market-place we're talking about. Alex. It is. Mostly falls under the trade secret area of IP. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 28th November 2008, 12:36 AM #34 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Again, things would change if you guys were magicians. Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets. The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber. Alex. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 28th November 2008, 02:32 AM #35 Leif Roar Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,838 Originally Posted by Legend Again, things would change if you guys were magicians. That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected. Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. Quote: Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets. The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber. If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? __________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005 Leif Roar View Public Profile Visit Leif Roar's homepage! Find More Posts by Leif Roar 28th November 2008, 02:57 AM #36 Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 40,028 Originally Posted by Shevek-72 I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining. I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery. I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel. But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way deminishes the performance of the magician. But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself. I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that. I like to learn how things are done, indeed when I've had some magic tricks explained to me it has only increased my enjoyment of seeing that trick performed again because I am trying to see if I can spot the trick of the trick being done. If there is a concern that these types of show are revealing unique IP well I would suggest it is time magicians got up to speed on the various ways there are to protect such IP and commercial knowledge. __________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Darat View Public Profile Visit Darat's homepage! Find More Posts by Darat 28th November 2008, 04:08 AM #37 Legend Disciple of Soap God Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 652 Originally Posted by Leif Roar That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected. Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? Just a thought. How about, before you make assumptions about what I'm thinking, you shutup and listen? It could just gain you some respect from people. Quote: Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not. What a stupid comment. OF COURSE my opinion would change. I would have little respect for magic as a whole and see it from a completely different perspective. One thing that drives me insane, is that when someone who knows a particular topic, is confronted by an adamant other who doesn't, thinking they know all there is to know about the matter. It's more complicated than you'd think. Quote: If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it? I'm not catching your drift here. Quote: ad homiens Dd hominems** And the comment in question was not anything but factual. To summarise this particular view: What you're saying is not only aggravating, but stupid, wild and baseless. Accept that when you're involved with something, your opinions do inevitably change, simply because that is the truth. This entire conversation would be completely different if I were to take this to a magic site I'm a member of. As a matter of fact, here are some comments on the site (after I searched the forums) and came up with: Quote: To relate it to the IBM, my local ring seems to run like Magic Hat. You jump through a few hoops, prove that youre in it for the magic, and not to become the dreaded Masked Magician From a topic about The Masked Magician, entitled: "Today I died a little bit inside." Quote: It is with great grief that I announce that today, November 8th 2008, about 10 minutes ago, a show called "Os segredos da Magia", in english, "The secrets of Magic", ended it's first episode. Starring the Masked Magician. Quote: In ONE episode I lost SAW and healed and sealed soda can. A friend of mine has already started to recieve SMS saying "I know how you did that trick on YouTube." Quote: How could it be that our dearest and most valuable secrets can be blatantly destroyed like this? Quote: A girl that started THIS WEEK in magic, knowing nothing more than 2 palms and a swing cut, already hates him. Quote: I can't believe this. I just died a little bit. Monday I'll probably have to put up with idiots full of joy, because they saw a traitor and a fraud reveal how I did my string through neck trick. I swear I'll strangle anyone who mentions this show. Quote: Revealing older stage illusions is bad enough but those two tricks are still on the market, private domain, and commonly performed. I understand that you gotta make a living and if you absolutely must reveal tricks to make money, (I don't know how you would think of doing that for a career) then do something that won't decimate somebody's act/reputation. Quote: Like, I was gobsmacked. When he started doing Needle through arm, I simply walked out of the living room... Quote: I am glad to live somewhere where we cant see these kind of shows on tv. But still... I would sure like to kick him, %*#&$#*&!! A personal favourite: Quote: Today I got this comment "Hey did you see that magic show last friday? I got to tell you, not to offend you or any magician like you, but magic is a lot of bull****." And to think an arrow missed his heart for 4 cm... Quote: Has there been assassination attempts on this guy yet? Another goodie: Quote: Don't you just hate it, though? When someone like that just blatantly reveals stuff, and you just can't do anything about it? You lose, and you will never win. We can't tell spectators, "This guy is a poor magician who can't keep secrets" and whatnot. It sucks. Somebody should give this Val Valentino a good smack on the head and a kick in the you-know-what, and then tell him, "Look, you're putting many other guys out of work because of your stupid show." But then, that's probably never going to happen. And another: Quote: I still think someone should shoot this guy The boldened text was for those who don't read all of the quotes. I thought I had seen stupid comments in my life, but this surpasses them all. "If we were magicians our arguments would be the same". Honestly... Alex. P.S. I hope to God I misread what you wrote. Legend View Public Profile Find More Posts by Legend 29th November 2008, 08:20 AM #38 geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 18,227 Originally Posted by Darat I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that. Movie special effects are more likely to be protected by patent (although not the more straightforward ones. geni View Public Profile Visit geni's homepage! Find More Posts by geni 29th November 2008, 09:22 PM #39 Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Temporarily in Vancouver Posts: 6,136 Originally Posted by Legend It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic. Oh, geez, another one of those. "You're not entitled to have an opinion, and any opinion you have has no validity, because you don't belong to the group that I belong to". Like women who claim that men don't have a right to an opinion on the abortion debate, because they'll never be pregnant. Get over yourself. Two points I'll raise. First of all, the vast majority of magicians are not creating their own tricks. They are buying their tricks from other people, or learning them from books/videos. If you're going to argue that the masked magician shouldn't be allowed to earn money from tricks that were invented by other people, then why the hell should other magicians be allowed to? Aren't you, in effect, a whole bunch of parasites? There's a very small number of magicians who actually create new tricks; and a whole bunch of magicians who simply copy and imitate them. In short -- if it is wrong for the Masked Magician to make money fby using tricks that other people created...why is it right for you or any other magician to make money from using tricks that other people created? Hell, let's trademark all the tricks, and only let those who invented them use them (or license them out to others, with fees and royalties being paid for all uses of those tricks)...and then let's see how long the majority of "magicians" actually survive. No wonder you get so upset about someone revealing the secrets...you don't have the ability to actually create something of your own. You are entirely reliant on being able to copy other people. (note -- this is addressed very specifically to Legend, in response to the arrogance he displayed in his response...it doesn't reflect my real feelings about most magicians ) Second, I have not seen any argument that has actually demonstrated, in verifiable terms, any damage that has been done by the Masked Magician's revelations. So far as I can tell, good magic acts and talented magicians are still getting lots of business, and having popular shows. I myself have watched a number of these shows -- both the Masked Magician, and a variety of videos on YouTube -- and it has not in any way affected my enjoyment of magic, or my desire to see it. Nor, in talking to others, have I found it to affect their interest in magic in any negative manner. Quote: That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done. REALLY!!! Not only am I not entitled to any opinion, but you also know what my opinion would be if I were a magician. Yet, viewing the responses to this over the years, there have been some magicians who've stated either that they don't care about what the Masked Magician does, or that they actually think its a good idea. So your statement doesn't even hold true in actual reality...much less in regards to trying to predict what opinions or attitudes I'd have if I were a magician. Quote: It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening. Alex. And I love it when someone takes a personal opinion, and without anything beyond their own personal opinion to support it, conclude that it is the Truth, and the only reasonable/possible conclusion. I've found the responses of the majority of magicians here to be quite reasonable and understandable. I may not agree with them entirely -- obviously, my perspective is different as a non-magician, obviously -- but I can sympathize with them. But in your case, my response has nothing whatsoever to do with being a magician. It has to do with the crass arrogance demonstrated, the anti-intellectual and anti-skeptical arguments you use to claim that those who aren't magicians can't have an opinion, or that your personal opinions constitute actual fact. __________________ Click here to learn about a unique culture where the women are in charge, and there is no marriage. Learn more about the Mosuo, one of China's least known minorities. And click here to read my blog. Wolfman View Public Profile Visit Wolfman's homepage! Find More Posts by Wolfman 29th November 2008, 09:52 PM #40 roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 6,351 I like watching the shows (I've only seen the older specials, not the current series), and I still like watching magic. I took great delight in watching Randi perform some magic in VT, and figuring out how it was done - not based on a direct expose that I saw, but by thinking about the ways he might of manipulated my perception. I.e., the stuff I saw on TV prepared my way of thinking about things. Some of his other stuff I already knew how it was done - it was fun to watch how he did it. As a kid I did some mild magic - cup and balls and the like. No way I could do the routine now. But it never diminished my appreciation of magic. __________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. - John Muir roger View Public Profile Find More Posts by roger Page 1 of 2 1 2 > JREF Forum » General Topics » Conjuror's Corner Bookmarks Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google Reddit « Previous Thread | Next Thread » Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Download This Thread Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home JREF Topics Welcome! 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