Curb Your Enthusiasm for Obama ( Chris Hedges )

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080831_curb_your_enthusiasm_for_obama/

Curb Your Enthusiasm for Obama
Posted on Aug 31, 2008

AP photo / Jae C. Hong
http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/AP_obama_hedges_curb3.jpg

By Chris Hedges

Barack Obama’s health care plan coddles the corporations that profit from the
misery and illnesses of tens of millions of Americans. The plan is naive, at
best, and probably disingenuous when it insists that we can coax these
corporations, which are listed on the stock exchange and exist to maximize
profit, to transform themselves into social service agencies that will provide
adequate health care for all Americans. I wish we lived in such a rosy world.
I know, and I suspect Obama knows, that we do not.

“Obama offers a false hope,” said Dr. John Geyman, the former chair of family
medicine at the University of Washington and author of “Do Not Resuscitate:
Why the Health Insurance Industry Is Dying, and How We Must Replace It.” “We
cannot build on or tweak the present system. Different states have tried this.
The problem is the private insurance industry itself. It is not as efficient
as a publicly financed system. It fragments risk pools, skimming off the
healthier part of the population and leaving the rest uninsured or
underinsured. Its administrative and overhead costs are five to eight times
higher than public financing through Medicare. It cares more about its
shareholders than its enrollees or patients. A family of four now pays about
$12,000 a year just in premiums, which have gone up by 87 percent from 2000 to
2006. The insurance industry is pricing itself out of the market for an ever
larger part of the population. The industry resists regulation. It is
unsustainable by present trends.”

We face a health crisis. The Democratic and Republican parties, awash in
campaign contributions from the beasts they should be slaying on our behalf,
have no interest in addressing it. A report in the journal Health Affairs
estimates that, if the system is left unchanged, one of every five dollars
spent by Americans in 2017 will go to health coverage. Half of all
bankruptcies in America are because families are unable to pay their medical
bills. There are some 46 million Americans without coverage and tens of
millions more with inadequate policies that severely limit what kinds of
procedures and treatments they can receive.

“There are at least 25 million Americans who are underinsured,” said Dr.
Geyman. “Whatever coverage they have does not come close to covering the
actual cost of a major illness or accident.”

Obama, like John McCain, did not support HR 676, the single-payer legislation.
The corporations that run our for-profit health care industry, which would be
shut down if the bill was enacted, have vigorously fought it through campaign
contributions and armies of lobbyists. A study by Harvard Medical School found
that national health insurance would save the country $350 billion a year. But
Medicare does not make campaign contributions. The private health care
industries do. They have lavished money on Obama. He received $708,000 from
medical and insurance interests between 2001 and 2006, according to the Center
for Responsive Politics. And Michelle Obama is a vice president for community
and external affairs at the University of Chicago Hospitals, a position that
paid her $316,962 annually.

“The private health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry
completely and totally oppose national health insurance,” said Dr. Stephanie
Woolhandler, one of the founders of Physicians for a National Health Program.
“The private health insurance companies would go out of business. The
pharmaceutical companies are afraid that a national health program will, as in
Canada, be able to negotiate lower drug prices. Canadians pay 40 percent less
for their drugs. We see this on a smaller scale in the United States, where
the Department of Defense is able to negotiate pharmaceutical prices that are
40 percent lower.”

Sen. Obama argues that we can improve the system by expanding government
oversight. The government, he says, should require doctors and hospitals to
prove they provide quality care. His plan links payment with reported quality.
This would mean that health care providers would have to hire even larger
staffs to collect and report this data to the government. There would be a
$10-billion federal investment in health care information technology over five
years under the Obama plan, in essence turning record keeping from paper to
electronic data.

Obama’s plan, said Dr. Don McCanne, who writes on health care issues, would
actually make health plans “more expensive, which compounds the problem.”

Obama says he would require insurance companies to use more income from
premiums for patient care.

“There isn’t an enforcement mechanism,” Geyman said bluntly. “Most states have
been unable to control rates or set a cap on rates.”

Obama’s plan would also not cover all Americans. Unlike in Canada, citizens
would not be enrolled in a plan automatically. Americans would have to go
looking for one they could afford. And if they could not find one they would
remain uninsured. Dr. Woolhandler, who is also a professor at Harvard Medical
School, estimates that “tens of millions” of Americans would remain uninsured
under Obama’s plan. These numbers would swell as employers, who provide plans
for 59 percent of those who are employed, continue to reduce coverage.

“The only way everyone will get insurance is with national health insurance,”
she said from Boston in a phone interview. “There is nothing in the Obama plan
that will change the bitter reality that working-class families face when
their breadwinner gets sick. People with catastrophic illnesses usually lose
their jobs and lose their insurance. They often cannot afford the high
premiums for the insurance they can get when they are unable to work. Most
families that file for bankruptcy because of medical costs had insurance
before they got sick. They either lost the insurance because they lost their
jobs or faced gaps in coverage that meant they could not afford medical care.”

Obama has borrowed John Kerry’s idea to have the government absorb certain
severe costs, although again the details are not spelled out. Insurers, he
says, would no longer be able to discriminate based on preexisting conditions.
All children would have health coverage. He would, he says, expand Medicare
and Medicare-like coverage to protect the very young and the elderly. This is
laudable, if he can make it happen. But the fundamental problem is a health
industry run for profit. Our health system costs nearly twice as much as
national programs in countries such as Switzerland. The overhead for
traditional Medicare is 3 percent, and the overhead for the investment-owned
companies is 26.5 percent. A staggering 31 percent of our health care
expenditures is spent on administrative costs. Look what we get in return.

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By cyrena, September 4 at 8:22 pm #

By Folktruther, September 4 at 7:08 pm

• “I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either.”

This is a good thing self-identified folktruther. You and KDelphi can agree
with each and revel in the misery together. They say there’s someone for
everyone out there. Are you both aware of the Private Message system that TD
provides here, so that you can converse together, to your hearts content, and
not have to deal with such spiteful and malicious people who expose you for
what you are? I mean, if you didn’t put the IED’s out there in a public forum,
then nobody would call you on them.

And of course we already KNOW, that I’m not the only one you’ve had run-ins
with on this forum. In fact, you started off wrong, trying to shove your
bullshit ideology down everybody else’s throat.

And you’re pissed because you’ve been an unsuccessful troll? Whose fault is
that? You blasted in talking all kinds of partisan trash, pigeon-holing folks
that you don’t know and can’t match wits with, into whatever categories you’ve
made up in your own mind. Then you get your feelings hurt when you find
yourself exposed for the non-substance that you represent, at least in most of
what you portray via your posts.

The way you bitch and complain about the other posters here, one would think
you were paying for your presence and not getting your money’s worth. Is
someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to participate on this
forum? Or is this just the site you were assigned as part of the greater troll
operation? Do you get paid by the word, or do you have to produce ‘converts’?

Seems to me like this site is a godsend for people like you and KDelphi. She
gets a full spectrum of therapy, even as she complains about health care. Do
you know how much a professional would charge her to listen to all of this
whining? Same with you. Do you think any other publisher would actually put
your crap out there with their names behind it? Of course not.

So what are you complaining about? You get to see your words in print, and
think you’re real important, even if nobody else does.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 8:00 pm #

If the US had an ACTUAL “free market” (without all the govt subsidies for big
oil, big agri-business, etc.) and there was sufficient estate taxes (so that
these dumb basterds would never be admitted to Yale)and they werent born with
silver spoons--half of the neo-cons would FALL RIGHT OFF any level playing
field!Oh I’m sure Bush would have been pres. without his daddy and his Nazi
grandpa, Prescott. Sure. If Bush, Cheney, Rummy,Kerry, etc. had to claw their
way to the top--they would have died. So, its socialism for THEM and
capitalism for all the rest of us. You Friedman guys are so ful of it--it is
good that the world is finally waking up to how ridiculous your ideas are.
Hear the “death rails”??

By Folktruther, September 4 at 7:08 pm #

I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either. You appear to be a
spiteful, malicious person who can’t disagree with someone without calling
them a liar or their being dishonest.

This is the first site I’ve visited where the Dem pseudo-progressives were so
meanspirited and had such a vulgar outlook. I suppose as the Elite political
consensus continues to right this will attract more and more of this kind of
gutter debate, since the only defense of the indefensible is an ineffectual
attempt at intimidation.

When Obiden is elected, as he probably will be, and progressives begin to
understand that nothing is going to change for the better, they may break
ideologically from the Dems. But at that time progressives will be in a worse
position, since the political interests for repression will have switched to
the Dems, as it did during the Vietnam war.

At that point the thought control bill initiated by Jane Harman and the
Zionists may well be passed, as it was alredy was in the house, with only
three Dems voting against it. In which case both the Gop and Dem Internet
cites may well be dominated by the same kinds of people and the same kind of
discourse.

By Marshall, September 4 at 5:32 pm #

By cilcsster, September 3 at 2:54 pm #

“Marshall, everything I’ve put on here about my case is true, it’s documented
and can be verified!”

Cilcsster - I’m not questioning the facts of your case. I’m giving you the
stats that describe the larger picture.

“In each country there are areas remote where health coverage will not be
anything like in metro areas.”

It’s not just “remote areas” I’m talking about; it’s the amount of medical
technology available per capita. This leads to longer wait times because they
can only serve a fixed number of patients in a given time.

“...in California, I was surviving on social security and could not afford any
health insurance!”

I agree that the main problem in the U.S. is coverage. But the problem isn’t
as bad as people paint it, despite your specific situation. The number of
uninsured is definitely too high, but the solution isn’t putting it all under
government control. Just because something isn’t working as well as it should
doesn’t mean it needs to be scrapped altogether.

“The tax cuts that Bush put thru are for the top 5% of the income scale, the
lower income Americans get nothing.”

Liberal myth. The tax cuts lowered ALL tax brackets, and ALL taxpayers
received rebates. If your family makes less than about $25K in this country,
you pay no federal income tax anyway, so naturally you wouldn’t receive a
rebate. That’s how a progressive tax system works, and it’s why the richest
1% already pay pay almost 40% of all taxes.

“Taxes are there for a reason, to help protect all Americans.”

History teaches us that governments don’t take care of people well. People
take care of themselves better if they’re given the means to do so, and a
strong economy gives them that means; not government aid. Obama will increase
far more than beer and cig taxes; numerous taxes will have to increase to pay
for his social programs, global warming initiatives, and a retooling of our
health care system. That’s the reason you’ve seen no actual numbers from him
on how he’d pay for all this: because the reality would scare voters.

“Pass a bill that says no members of the American Government get any health
care before ALL AMERICANS get health care!”

Then those govt. employees would never get covered, since 37% of all uninsured
Americans live in households that make at least $50K but still choose NOT to
own health insurance. And 20% aren’t U.S. citizens.

“a person who rejects the science of biology, chemistry and physics for pie in
the sky. Could her ilk take on the challenge of developing life-saving drugs
and foods for the betterment of the whole world?”

Luckily the free market and academia develop these things, not the vice
president. Your desire to increase govt. power (by restricting free market)
only opens the door for more future govt. interference in these important
endeavors.

“Just what the hell are her qualifications besides having children?”

Better than Obama’s… and she’s only the veep. Obama’s never run anything,
he’s never originated legislation that became law; he’s got little history but
is big on “hope”. Unfortunately the govt. doesn’t run on “hope”, it runs on
action.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 5:00 pm #

If you find this fun--have at it. Youre not convincing anyone that isnt part
of the"protect Obama at al costs” group. I dont want to play anymore, and I’m
sure as hell not going to read those long posts.You need to do something
besides teach 24/7. Yep , thats personal. Yep saying I’m crazy or stupid will
erally win me over. I just dont understand your purpose.-Lets just ignore each
other from now on. When you say “we”’ , by the way, who do you mean? Do you
guys own this site or something? Because you seem to be of th imperssion that
you do. Youre insulting, and youre, youre smart. But I just dont like you.I
think youre sharp tongued, adn you delight in proving other people wrong,( or
at least “catxchihng something” NO matter what--if you can play “gotcha ya”
its your biggest joy in life.I will nevefr understand why my opinion became so
impt to you--you dont seem to think much of me.I wish you would uise your
considerable skills for a more useful purpose. Go talk to somebody who gives a
damn wht you think now.

By cyrena, September 4 at 4:43 pm #

1 of 2
Oh KDelphi,

The irony/paradox is indeed so very cruel. There is no doubt in my mind, that
you’re intentions are overwhelmingly good and worthy. You just don’t ‘get’
much. Sometimes you appear to, and then, you don’t.

You see, I honestly DO pay attention to what you say in these posts, and you
consistently contradict yourself, time after time after time. And guess what?
That’s JUST FINE…at least in *my* book, it’s a GOOD thing! Or, at least it
SHOULD be a good thing, if it allows you to examine those contradictions to
get to a fuller understanding of your own beliefs and personal ideology, in
context with the reality of the rest of the world. Problem is, your posts at
least, don’t really give any indication that you’ve utilized the process to
that end.

So there is a very cruel irony in nearly everything you post, because your
comprehension/perception/interpretation of the input from others is ‘off’

Like this:

• “…My profs. taught me to think for myuself, and I will continue to do that.
When they thought I was wrong, they heard me out, then explained…”

One of many cruel ironies here. You are totally oblivious to the fact that
many people on this forum, (myself included) have done (or attempted to to),
EXACTLY THE SAME THING that you credit your professors with. Hearing you out,
EXPLAINING when they thing you’re wrong, (or in my case, not even calling it
‘wrong’ but just providing further context and information that might help you
to continue the development of your ‘thinking for yourself) and you don’t get
it. Instead, you call it an ‘attack’ and a personal attack at that!

Then this:

• “…cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you
directly.”

KDel…the LAST thing you’ve done, is to keep anything on this board IMPERSONAL.
You’ve made it about as PERSONAL as it gets, making it all about YOU, ALL of
the time. If somebody was reading through these blogs for the first time
they’d see yours and think this was some sort of an on-line self-help therapy
session. And while that is acceptable enough, TO A DEGREE, you very personal
ideology in such a stand alone posture simply is not relevant to the larger
picture. So in that respect, your opinion DOESN’T matter to me. It ONLY
matters to the degree that I actually CARE about the individual, because the
‘individual’ is also a member of the group of all of us.

The problem (or one of the many) is that in operating from your own (selfish)
center of reference, you make ASSUMPTIONS, about the whole, and from your
posts, we see that your assumptions are always wrong.

For instance, in this very post, you go on and on about you and your social
work, as if I had somehow dismissed or otherwise made such work appear to be
‘insignificant’, when in fact I’ve spent the entirety of my life doing
probably more SOCIAL WORK than your limited imagination could even conceive.
I’ve spent my life IN THE SERVICE OF my fellow human being, regardless of
their race, creed, ethnicity, nationality, class, gender, ideology or
political persuasion. And I’ve done it because I’ve CHOSEN to do it. Were that
NOT the case, I wouldn’t be spending (and seemingly WASTING) my time
communicating with YOU!!

For you to suggest that my own reactions/responses to you would somehow be
different if you were supportive of Obama is an insult to my intelligence, and
a display of just how shallow you are yourself, even ABOUT yourself.

And no KDel, my responses to you are not a matter of anger. That’s not to say
that I don’t get pissed off about a lot of things, especially in these times
that we’re all at least attempting to live in. But don’t presume the arrogance
of the position that I am ‘angry’ with you, or even ‘attacking’ you. If
nothing more, I have a great deal of empathy for you, and it would be more
than fair to say that I do experience a great deal of frustration when I
observe or otherwise perceive any group or individual involved in
self-sabotage.

By cyrena, September 4 at 4:38 pm #

Part 2 of 2 KDelphi

On an *entirely* UNrelated matter, I don’t much give a shit WHO you vote for.
Seriously..I don’t. If I believed that your one vote could or would make the
difference between the continued misery of another 4 years of McCain and the
opportunity to stop the destruction, and change the direction, I might. Since
that isn’t the case, it doesn’t matter. But your opinions do matter to you, as
well as to anyone else who might be affected by them. So I respect them for
what they mean to you.

However, I’ll continue to call you on anything that you present on a public
forum that I know to be a falsehood, or a lie. As a general rule, you manage
to avoid putting any obvious lies out there, because nearly everything you say
is couched in personal opinion, because it’s always about…YOU. So you avoid
(for the most part at least) presenting your opinion as fact. If you do
though, I’ll call you on it, and it won’t be because I’m ‘angry’. It’ll just
be because I’m committed to truth and reality; no surprises there, for anyone
who reads through these posts.

And now my friend, I’m off to do some more of my social work. Here’s the basic
model for that. I sit or stand around with a bunch of other humanists, and we
bitch and lament, and piss and moan about how jacked-up things are. And then
we do a little brainstorming, to see if we can come up with some ideas that
might provide both immediate and long term solutions. And then, we ACTUALLY DO
SOMETHING. The do something stage for today’s menu requires that I catch the
next bus downtown, where there are some folks at a homeless shelter, waiting
on me to bring some much needed supplies that I’ve managed to collect from
around the ‘hood here. Now if you wanna donate, I need a new ‘old lady’ cart
to push the stuff around in, since the current one is on it’s very last wheel.

By Tony Wicher, September 4 at 3:25 pm #

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

Calm down. None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for
healthcare reform. The legislation for same will not come out of the White
House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office. And, do any of us really
believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill?

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st
two years of Obama’s first administration. (I know, from my lips to God’s
ears ...)
---------------------------------------------------
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does
represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the
magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and
activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer
without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will
pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if
Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing.
Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may
start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of
momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not
fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

By Tony Wicher, September 4 at 3:25 pm #

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not
fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

By Tony Wicher, September 4 at 3:25 pm #

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not
fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 2:37 pm #

Good point about the paragraphs. I’ll try, as one not taught on word
processors. Thanks

By KDelphi, September 4 at 2:18 pm #

She--thanks for your kind post. I dont really remember us disagreeing--maybe
we have. I have memory prob sometimes. I do not mean to harp on my health
prob. I just get in discussions with people who do not realize how bad it
really is out here! And it is certainly not just me. I know dozens of people
who should REALLY get a checkup (20 yrs), get dentures , their baby has
cold/pneumonia/who knows? I am SO tierd of having friends die, do without, and
dread the future for myself adn friends.I have some “rough ‘old friends”! LOL
I finished college, but I did alot of other things first! Some of it I regret,
most I dont. But I cannot/should not put it behind me.I believe that it is
strongly immoral to let people die because rich people dont want to pay
taxes.I get angry, I cry--but I simply cannot give up. The lady I helped a
friend bury the other day, who comitted suicide for lack of a hospice
(morphine), I swore over her grave, I would put my “social worker hat” back on
and start trying to do something again about health care. BTW, peeps, --being
a social worker may mean you are ‘stupid” to some--you dont make much--but, it
is just as hard to get an MS insocial work as anything else. I paid off my
student loans. I worked like hell. And when I needed Medicaid, the govt TOOK
my PERS (pension) EVERY PENNY!Why should I NOT be upset? My family has spent
almost $350,000 this year and that was ALL we HAD! Theres a little more from
my sis , who teaches at SUNY/Purchase--but you ,now how much she makes! Most
people do not have even THAT back up!Anyway--I’m whining here. I just want
some help!! And not just for me!! Please, if you care. We just have to do
this. Period.

By Shenonymous, September 4 at 2:01 pm #

KDelphi, I really am sorry if I’ve pissed you off so much in the past. We’ve
had our arguments, but I think they have been civil. I have been listening to
your pleas for a long time and I hear you loud and clear and I completely
sympathize that you do not have enough to take care of your medical expenses.
There are those of us (even though you may not think I do, I do!) who care
about folks like you, and there are plenty of them out there. I am a retired
prof gone back to work! I have fairly decent coverage, but who knows if it
will endure? My meds still cost a lot in spite of the insurance but nothing
like what you are going through and a few others I know. The rest of us who
care are doing everything we can to change the situation.

There are also those out there who do not agree that help should be given and
those are the Republicans. You should not ever have to consider leaving this
country. It is unconscionable. It is a travesty. This is your home!
Something will be done, but it might not be to the degree that will suit you
completely because everything has to be negotiated, but something is going to
be done. Single payer is the best plan but it might not happen exactly that
way. We all who can will fight for a universal health care plan in the ways
we can. But we are going to have to have a Democratic congress to get any
decent bill passed and a Democratic president who will sign the bill. It will
not get done otherwise, it is a predictable fact.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 1:47 pm #

I cannot afford to leave the country. My house would sel for NOTHING!

By KDelphi, September 4 at 1:38 pm #

Saw SICKO--I LIVE SICKO, Try a Medicadi HMO for about 10 yrs. You’ll be a
complete mess. I dont “use everything I can get"--because you cannot get
anything!(For profit HMOs have no busines in publicly funded services--they do
NOT save $$--they just cut services)I actually tried to convince my
comgresspeople that the HMO was wasting $$ by advertising--I sent them the 2
boxes of pretty color brochures they sent me--complete with “model” lookin
drs. and nurses, adn asked if I could NOT have these leaflets, and PLEASE have
my prescriptions--most of which i have been taking for years. I got no
response. Ohio Atty. Gen.’s Office either.As long as taxpyers THINK they are
saving $$ , the rep. dont care.Some of this is very strange to me--once you
got it, you get everything you can, but you dont want anyone else to?? When
they did not pass SCHIP, a guy said to me, “I have 3 kids and I’m on SCHIP,
and I dont think we should expand it cause we cant afford it”. !!!!!!!!!!!!HA!

By sharonsj, September 4 at 12:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Instead of personal attacks, how about some personal experience? I paid for
health insurance when I was employed and continued to do so when
self-employed. But a series of business reversals and declining health used
up all my savings to the point where I could not afford health insurance. I
haven’t had any for six years. Despite a laundry list of limitations, the
government told me that being disabled did not entitle me to Social Security
Disability. And despite living on $8,000 a year after paying taxes, I was
deemed too rich for assistance. I am now 65 and eligible for Medicare. Of
course I am a mess and need repair, for which the government now has to foot
the bill. For want of a series of shots costing about $1000, the government
will now have to pay tens of thousands to replace my various joints. Since I
thwarted the mostly Republican hope that I would die and save them money, rest
assured I will now accept every test and drug offered at government expense.
I guess this makes sense to the morons who think helping people is Socialism,
but not to anyone else. And if you need further explanations, watch Michael
Moore’s SICKO. You’ll want to pack up and leave the country.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 12:25 pm #

cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you directly. I
even like you--but, when you get angry, your attacks just make you look cruel.
Why not attack socialism, if you think it is wrong? Because i am an easy
target. Its very unbecoming.I have a very uncomfortable feeling that, if I had
been an Obamas supporter, all the way, from day one, that you would not be
attacking me every time you disagree. I have no idea why my opinion is so
important to you. Lets call a truce on this one. I am NOT goin gto change my
mind about the things I’ve stated. I MAY change my minds if it looks like
McSame could win--but that will be MY mind, something that seems to be
lacking, even when people post massive links and quotations. (I am NOT talking
about you , cyrena ) Their computer skills, grammer, and spelling are
perfect--butther is no heart. The whole US seems lacking it these days.. But
I’m not afraid of swimming against the tide either. YOu can hurt my
feeling--but,I did just fine--better than fine=-=-when I finaly got to
college. My profs. taught me to think for myuself, and I will continue to do
that. When they thought I was wrong, they heard me out, then explained.Social
workers are an easy target , too, aren’t they? Yes, they work with the people
society has abandoned. It makes me poor, but I wouldnt give up what I’ve
learned from people on the street for anything. Why in the world would I
abandon my strong feelings about social matters now, when , I feel, the uS
needs freethinkers more than it ever has. Now, THAT would be stupid.

By Folktruther, September 4 at 12:10 pm #

Hang in there, KDelphi, I’m a high school dropout too. Unfortunately I
dropped out to enter the U of Chicago where it took me decades to unlearn the
Elitist crap they taught me. And you don’t have to be smart to know that you
are being screwed.

I was smart enough when I was young but, like everyone else, I’ve gotten
dumber and dumber as I’ve gotten older and older. But it is not intelligence
that is most lacking in the American people, it’s courage. You have guts,
KDelphi, and that is what is most needed in the comming period of repression.

May I suggest that you write your posts in paragraphs? A lot of people find a
mass of print off-puting. Tell your truths a few sentences at a time then
skip a line.

By cyrena, September 4 at 10:51 am #

y KDelphi, September 4 at 7:54 am

“ I also do not like being lectured--my sister is a prof and she does the same
thing to me--when people treat me like i’m stupid (beinga high school drop out
and all, even tho I went back), I just tune it out!”

~~~~~~

YOUR words KDelphi...and YOUR words say it all. (as you’ve already managed in
multiple previous posts.)

As you say, “you just TUNE IT OUT!!” And that benefits -you- ,
exactly....HOW?????

There’s no way that anybody can ‘treat you like you’re stupid’ (and
intelligence has nothing to do with levels of education) unless YOU think
you’re stupid!

I don’t think you’re ‘stupid’, but you sure do have some serious ‘issues’, and
‘tuning-out’ in the way that you reference it, doesn’t help you. You clearly
aren’t adding to any ‘socialist’ effort in terms of this forum
either...rather, just the opposite. More like a drain, or the ‘problem child’
in any given social structure.

The standard ‘you’ formula or ‘Type-YOU’ personality. It’s all you, all the
time. That only works for a while. Then even the most generous of kindred
spirits get tired and simply blow you off.

You say you used to be a social worker. (I’m not surprised, I have a former
who is a social worker...has more issues than the New York Times). But, since
you were, don’t you know of any resources you could tap into there for
counseling services?

Just a thought. I think you’ve worked this well dry.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 8:54 am #

Sorry--but Obama himself, says that, even the limited reform he wants to make
in health care will “Prob not be accomplished in his first term”.John Conyers
already has a bill (HR 676) that would, basically be, Medicare for all . I
wish Obama would get behind that! The last time I asked teh campaign (2 yrs
ago and 6 mos ago and 2 wks ago) he was still “looking upon it favorably”.

By Tony Wicher, September 4 at 8:27 am #

By KDelphi, September 4 at 7:57 am #

btw--I watched Palin’s pseech--or as much of it as I could stand-this AM. I
stil hate the sexist attacks (wil she bbe able to care for ...blah--would they
ask that of a man??NO!), but I saw her 1)use her child--that baby is young and
should have ben in bed and 2) she just acts like an atack dog. I dont think
you have to worry about women voting for McSame because of her--I was never
planning to. I was just cutting her slack until I heard fro her, as I was
tired of the misogyny. Now, I just hate her as a perons.
---------------------------------------------------
If you think you hate her, you should hear my ex-wife! She says 80% of women
can see right through this phony.

By suziekidder, September 4 at 8:25 am #

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st
two years of Obama’s first administration. (I know, from my lips to God’s
ears ...)

The structure of the plan we will end up designing isn’t clear yet - and it
won’t be until the insurance and drug industries are forced to realize that
it’s happening with or without them and Harry and Louise won’t work this time
around. If McCain is elected - we’re screwed. If Obama is elected - God are
you listening? - then we get healthcare in this country.

And no plan on the table as yet would do what it will take - there are holes,
misplaced incentives, and “devil in the details” in all of them. I’ve worked
healthcare for a couple of decades - and there’s one area that’s working very
well indeed. Integrative Medicine, Functional Medicine and Environmental
Medicine are successfully treating the kinds of complex chronic illnesses on
which we’re spending 70 to 75% of our annual healthcare budget - without
making a serious dent in the incidence of these diseases or the pain
experienced by those who suffer from them.

H.R. 676 isn’t what we need in this country - it’s universal care but the
medical model “covered” is too narrow and there’s no room for responsible
physician/patient driven innovation. We need to look more carefully at what
worked in the 50’s and 60’s that we’ve designed out of our mainstream system,
i.e. the relationship we used to have with our physicians, and at how to
harness the capacity for responsible innovation in this country of which we’re
legitimately proud. There are areas of “positive deviance” in our healthcare
system - and we need to look at these with a view towards incorporating their
lessons into the mainstream system we’re proposing to design.

I’d love to discuss specifics with anyone who’s interested - swkidder at
mindspring dot com.

We have a fabulous “adventure” in front of us - a chance to reeinvent the ways
in which we heal and to leave a “healthy” healthcare system as a gift to our
children .... not to mention all of us.

By KDelphi, September 4 at 7:57 am #

By KDelphi, September 4 at 7:54 am #

I am not saying I BLAME Obama--he just does nothing to refute what they are
doing! I also do not like being lectured--my sister is a prof and she does the
same thing to me--when people treat me like i’m stupid (beinga high school
drop out and all, even tho I went back), I just tune it out!I am NOT a
“liberal"--I am a Socialist--a patty that exists within the political ssystems
of every major , free pwoer in the world, except the uS. Why? Because Ams are
TERRIFIED of “Communism” which they equare with “:socialism"--because many of
them have no idea what it is, or they look at China or former USSR and
conclude that it is “pure capitalism” or a “communist dictatorship” (a
contradiction in terms all by itself!)Living by the Chicago Skool--Friedman,
Rand, is a good way to die if you are poor.I am reg. as a Dem. Was all my life
(despite being raiseed gOP), until I became a member of SP-USA about 10 yrs
ago. We were still allowed to be reg. and vote as we chose.In 2000, my brother
in law, who went to school with W, let me know what we wers in for--plus I
liked Gore on global climate change. The election was stolen, so , alot of
good it did. In 2004, I LEFT SP-USA, because they passed a motion that you
cannot be reg as a Dem and asn SP-USA--I wanted w out so badly.Stolen again.
(No faN of Kerry’s here--how do we alwasy end up with these blue bloods!
Still, better than w)I am growing tired, once again, of “better than”. I
worked with moveon.org in 2006 (as well as 2004)--MANY votes werw stolen in
OHio--DNC does NOTHING! OH, I think they had a hearing--a BUNCH of them , prob
and they have the balls to do NOTHING! I try to keep an open mind about
it--Obama’s supporters seem to have forgotten Psych 101--what they are doing
is a good way to turn people off. An open mind--but not so much that my brains
fall out.

By Folktruther, September 4 at 7:45 am #

The center that Obiden is going for, Cyrena, is not the center of the
population consensus, but the center of the ruling class consensus that
finances and supports him in the media. From the population’s point of view,
this is the Dem equivilent of the Gop neocon consensus.

By cyrena, September 3 at 8:52 pm #

KDelphi,

Here’s my point…re-read your words here, and I’ll try to explain it again

• “I have explained a million tiems that I have prob with alot of Obama’s
centrist stuff--but the one I just cannot get past--is the health care issue.”

Do you have any understanding of what you’re actually saying here? What I’ve
been trying to explain for about a million times as well, it that the health
care issue that you cannot get past, is NOT OBAMA’S CENTRIST STUFF!

Why can you not GET THAT? Let me explain this again. Barack Obama is not the
president yet. Barack Obama is NOT ‘corporate America’ no matter how much you
wanna make him be that, just because you’re suffering the same misery as the
rest of the country. (and you’re right, the woman who killed herself because
she couldn’t get into a hospice is one of several million. Our streets are
full of them, and our veterans are taking their lives by the dozens per week,
all over the country. Check in with Purple Wolf…there is probably at least one
funeral per month in her town of Flint MI, which is just as dead and dying as
your Ohio, and has been for nearly two decades). The homeless are filling up
the streets of my community as well, and I’ve actually tried to assist in a
very small way, by joining with other likeminded citizens, because we know
that we can hardly expect the very regime that put us in this misery, to get
us out.

Again, this didn’t happen overnight KDelphi, and Barack Obama, Senator for
less than 4 years, is simply not the reason for it, centrist or not. That is
the point that I keep making to you KDelphi, and the one that you obviously
keep missing. You are reacting to anything that comes from Obama as if he is
THE INCUMBANT. He’s NOT! Do you not get that? The repiglicans (and they are
RADICAL as opposed to the ‘centrist’ that you complain Obama is) are the ones
running this on-going destruction KDelphi. The repiglicans have have control
of Congress for the 16 years prior to 2006, when the dems gained this teesy
tiny and mostly meaningless majority.

You’ve also proven via your posts, that you really haven’t a clue to the
concepts of right/left/center, because such positions no longer even exist in
the political environment of today. Even Conservative and Liberal have lost
any former meaning, because no one can even begin to think of the current
administrative gangsters as ‘conservative’. They are radical as hell. True
‘conservatives’ and yes…centrists, have some sense of what the Constitution
is, and these thugs have destroyed it.

The point that I’ve been trying to make with you, is that you are blaming the
wrong entity. The disaster that you are trying to survive; that we are ALL
trying to survive, is NOT about Obama or what you call his ‘centrism’. What
Barack Obama represents is the first sign in nearly a decade, of returning
some sense of BALANCE to this thing we call a democracy or at least a
republic. BALANCE KDelphi. Start repeating it in your mind like a mantra. When
things are out of balance, whether they be to the extreme right, or the
extreme left, or the extreme ANYTHING, they CRASH.

When the body is out of balance, it crashes, and often fatally. When an
airplane is out of balance, the same thing can happen. When anything is out of
balance, it is subject to fatal consequences. When we attempt to balance
things, we look to the CENTER of gravity or whatever else the CENTER
represents. The CENTER is the most STABLE location of any entity.

Now go think on that for a while. And while you’re at it, keep in mind that
Barack Obama isn’t the president, and he isn’t part of the administration, and
this thing we’re dealing with, isn’t about HIM, or wherever he happens to be
situated on any issue. He didn’t break it, and he can’t wave a magical wand to
fix it. Whining doesn’t help either.

http://www.newbeginningscounselingcenter.org/

By Tony Wicher, September 3 at 8:25 pm #

Re KDelphi, September 3 at 3:29 pm #

Goin to that funeral the other day, where the lady killed herself because she
could not get into Hospice (and ther is a million more stories like that)
--its just too much for me! I find it unbelievable.
--------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but didn’t this happen under the current Republican administration? Why
blame Obama and the Democrats? There’s no equaivalence here. Democrats have
been trying to get some kind of universal medical care since Hillary in 1992.
Republicans blocked them all along.

By KDelphi, September 3 at 3:29 pm #

cyrena, you really need to calm down and not take this so personally. you know
that if it was JUST MY vote you were worried about--there would be no
prob.Liberal groups are scraming about Obama going right on issues in droves.
That si something HE should be aware--and perhaps--do something about!MY vote
is NOT your prob. (and I sincerly doubt if anyone is following my lead!) I
have explained a million tiems that I have prob with alot of Obama’s centrist
stuff--but the one I just cannot get past--is the health care issue. I am SOOO
tired of bein g the only civilized country without it, that all excuses sound
like bullshit to me, and I have to conclude taht it is all about $$--of course
it is, or we would all have it. And I think , that way BEFROE this stage of
the game--that that is IMMORAL> I’m not even asking him to back “nationalized,
universal”. WHY do people act like Conyers bill has “no chance”? I think that
pel.le dont realize how bad it is out here--I may change my mind (if he
does--i certainly will!) But I think Dem,s have abadoned liberals, not the
other way around. Goin to that funeral the other day, where the lady killed
herself because she could not get into Hospice (and ther is a million more
stories like that) --its just too much for me! I find it unbelievable.

By cyrena, September 3 at 3:04 pm #

KDelphi,

Anyone following this forum for any period of time would have figured out long
ago, that Marshall is NOT ‘one of us’. If Marshall is ‘middle class’ it is
only by GOP standards, (5 million or so a year, give or take). He’s pro war,
pro MIC, pro-Corp, pro tax-cuts for the wealthiest among us, pro-everything
that is GOP and what the current gangster regime stands for. So OF course he
has an excellent health care plan. When he complained that the Canadian health
care system wasn’t all it claimed to be by citing what were sometimes up to
4-hour waits at the emergency room, THAT should have provided further proof
that Marshall doesn’t exist in the same realities that the rest of us do. A
4-hour wait at 85% of California’s emergency rooms would have the patient
feeling like a lottery winner. The standard is 6 to 8, for those without
insurance in urban areas, or ANY county facilities. (where they still exist)
Now Marshall probably zips over to Cedar Sinai or UCLA in a pinch, where he
can call ahead and have the medical team standing by, probably via ambulance,
since I’m sure HIS health plan covers that as well. So, don’t even figure
anything that Marshall comes up with into your arguments. It isn’t the reality
that the rest of us live with, and Marshall lives in fear that any change or
improvement to OUR reality, is going to jeopardize his own privileged status.
An Obama administration is a nightmare for those (like Marshall) who have
fared so extremely well in this era of the ever widening split between the
elite and ‘rest of us’ as that gap between the haves and the have nots has
widened more than it has ever been since the Great Depression. (it’s actually
worse now than then)

Now you say this:

• “If Obama dose NOT com eup with a better helah care plan (which AlterNet,
Common Dreams, and the article on TD--are all criticizing--he wil lose alot of
working class votes. SP-USA originally encdorsed him--not now. YOu guys wont
listen you’ll lose, then you’ll blame someone else.”

Get a grip KDelphi. What can you possibly be THINKING? All of these sites can
criticize the Obama health care plan all they want, because I’ve yet to hear
ANYONE claim it to be perfect, or even pretty good. We all know it could be
far better.

But, how insane does it sound for you to actually say that he will lose a lot
of ‘working class votes’ if he doesn’t come up with something better. WHO THE
HELL ARE THE WORKING CLASS GONNA VOTE FOR *INSTEAD*???????

Does McCain have a BETTER PLAN? DOES ANYBODY have a better plan? Are you
crazy?????

In case you haven’t noticed KDelphi, John McCain doesn’t HAVE a plan for the
working class, or the middle class, which doesn’t exist by the way, because
you are correct, you and you family will unlikely ever be middle class again.

You talk about ‘blame’ and I just have to wonder for the umpteeth time, just
how seriously your sense to historical perception has been compromised by the
PTSD that so many of us are suffering. After that long and horrifically sad
story of your sister’s ills, (which she shares with at least a third of the US
population) you now wanna start looking for FUTURE administrations to BLAME?
HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK THINGS GOT THIS WAY KDELPHI?

By cilcsster, September 3 at 2:54 pm #

Marshall, everything I’ve put on here about my case is true, it’s documented
and can be verified! In Canada there are slightly more than 2.3 people per
sq. km. In the USA the figure is 10 times that. In each country there are
areas remote where health coverage will not be anything like in metro areas.
When I lived in California, I was surviving on social security and could not
afford any health insurance! What are they doing down there for people like
that? NOTHING!
Of course nothing is free. The tax cuts that Bush put thru are for the top 5%
of the income scale, the lower income Americans get nothing. Obama says he
will change that.
People are so hung up on greed that the word ‘tax’ has become a no no. Taxes
are there for a reason, to help protect all Americans. So your beer, cigs,
and booze are a lot more. SO WHAT! What have these things ever done for
public health? Double the prices, put the money into a health tax THAT ALL
AMERICANS PAY, and cover the nation for health care!
Pass a bill that says no members of the American Government get any health
care before ALL AMERICANS get health care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is happening
down there, has the nation turned into a bunch of wimps? Now they are running
this ‘creationist’ for a VP. Do you know what that means? That is a person
who rejects the science of biology, chemistry and physics for pie in the sky.
Could her ilk take on the challenge of developing life-saving drugs and foods
for the betterment of the whole world? Of course not! Just what the hell are
her qualifications besides having children? She is under investigation that
is being delayed by McCain and his friends. If this justice? Of course not!
Palin’s church is keeping their flock dumbbed down...they don’t know the
difference, they reject science, they are a danger to Americans. She is
suppose to represent ALL American, not just evangelicals, but she won’t, she
will push her churches agenda.

By KDelphi, September 3 at 2:01 pm #

Marshall--just as I suspected--you must have an excellent health care plan
and/or be in excellent health--you are fortunate. Others are not. Insurance
would NOT have covered everything--my sister in DC pays $12,500 a yr. for
privte insurance. She was diag with breast cancer--they left her with over
$200,000 in bills the first year! NOW they STILL wont pay for her chemo!!,
mammograms, etc.BUT, she has to keep it, as she works for herself, doesnt make
enough to take Obama’s’ tax deduction, and may have a re-ocurrence--although
she is 7 yrs out. My family had to pay for it all, and, along with my bills,
my fanily will never be middle class again! If I lived anywhere else inthe
free world this would never have hapened.If Obama dose NOT com eup with a
better helah care plan (which AlterNet, Common Dreams, and the article on
TD--are all criticizing--he wil lose alot of working class votes. SP-USA
originally encdorsed him--not now. YOu guys wont listen you’ll lose, then
you’ll blame someone else.

By Marshall, September 3 at 1:45 pm #

By cilcsster, September 2 at 3:36 pm #

“Do me a favor...add all this up and tell me what the out-of-pocket expenses
would be in The State of California.”

If you had a health insurance policy, then I imagine it would be nothing out
of pocket; just as it was in Canada. Why do you compare an uninsured person
in CA to a Canadian resident? Most in the U.S. have health insurance.

“I waited to get a room for several hours. Was it worth it? Sort of a silly
question isn’t it.”

Not if it had been a surgery you were waiting for: In 2007, average wait time
(from referral to procedure) for surgeries in Canada was 18.3 weeks, with
Ontario (your fair province) being the best at 15 weeks.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/10/surgery-wait-times
-in-canada-hit-record.html

Note that this link simply summarizes a Canadian report from the Fraser
Institute which you can view from the link on that page.

“Canadians are not forced to go anywhere for medical care”

You misinterpreted my statement. I meant that they choose to go to the U.S.
because the wait times in Canada are so long (as shown above).

Not a lot for you to argue with here since I’m showing you actual statistics,
as compared to your hypotheticals and anecdotes.

By Noah, September 3 at 1:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama is actually just McCain in disguise. He talks in a different way, more
soft, more personable, but his stances and voting record are just as lethal as
McCain’s. I actually think even less of Obama than I do of McCain, because
Obama is convincing the portion of the American public that has a conscience
to support unconscionable policies (like the Iraq war). Instead of openly
promoting violence and destruction, Obama persuades people that violence is
peace, that corporate fascism is social security. He is far more dangerous
than McCain for this reason.

By Shenonymous, September 3 at 9:08 am #

Asking if women and children still go first seems to be saying you want to go
first, Leefeller? Don’t worry about women and children. The rational women
will levitate enough to keep the children safe given that the men drilled the
holes in the boat. Oh, that religious freak Palin can drown with the guys and
we wouldn’t have to listen to her evangelical shrilling for the next few
months.

You gots what you gots, jake3988. Ah do baleeve Barack has ‘wildly’ been
against the Iraq War, or have you not been listening. And I have not heard him
say he was ‘against’ gay marriage. I suggest the July 1, 2008 Carpetbaggers
report at http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16058.html on Obama’s
position on gay marriage. He does flip flop on marijuana, no excuse for that,
he is a politician not a god. But then if you look at the gods in the
different abrahamic religions, he flip flops too. Oh well. Sigh. Can’t have
everything. Since marijuana will survive even without Obama’s support (it’s
been around for four decades at least or haven’t you noticed?) I’ll still go
with the guy.

For anybody that is interested in HR 676 try http://www.hr676.org/

By Tony Wicher, September 3 at 8:30 am #

cyrena,

So far I have not been able to find a single Obama quote either supporting or
not supporting HR 676. If it’s a house resolution, how could he have voted on
it before it passed the House? You’re a better scholar than me, cyrena - could
you research this one? Thanks.

By jake3988, September 3 at 8:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no one out there standing up for what liberals and, and frankly if
you look at the polls, everyone wants.

Issues like gay marriage, Iraq War, decriminalizing marijuana, and others are
in wild majority supports but there’s no politician out there who stands up
for these things.

Obama is on the right and McCain is on the far-right. We need a REAL liberal
candidate who will stand up for the rest of us!

By Leefeller, September 3 at 6:37 am #

ITW,

Noticed the change in your posts, we can get burned out chasing our tails,
time for a break.

Being on board a sinking ship is not a good feeling, is it still women and
children first?

By Inherit The Wind, September 3 at 6:17 am #

DaMick, September 2 at 6:05 pm #

Yeah, I’m usually insulting in a very different way, more “street-fighting”,
which I’m better at.

I can’t really tell you more...or why I can’t, so I’ll just butt out and watch
from an Olympian POV.

It’s just you are all wasting your time and chasing your tails. Sorry, but
that’s the truth. Those who know me know this ain’t my usual style.

By Shenonymous, September 3 at 5:49 am #

The reality is that any health care plan will have to go through Congress and
Obama’s plan will be reshaped by both the House and the Senate and unless
there is a dominant Democratic Congress there won’t be a change of any
significance. Candidates’ for president health care plans are political
coins. Obama means change, but not chump change.

Those who bow to the wisdom of Hedges bow to a god with less than one eye and
only sees half of what is real. Half truths can be just as dangerous as lies.

Much as I liked Biden, I have to agree with cyrena on Barbara Boxer, who I
think is about as strong a female politician as there is and who can
articulate the problems better than most. But Boxer does not seem to want
anything more than to be a California senator, at least up until now. Boxer
says Obama “offers hope, opportunity and fairness and a foreign policy that is
moral again.” I agree with her. There are a lot of issues and health care is
just one of them.

I don’t agree that the two party system eliminates thinking and reason from
the majority of the people. I think proof of that are those who post on this
forum and all the others. The fact that we don’t get what we want from the
system is not a sign that it doesn’t work. It just means it doesn’t work for
some. The fact that money controls everything, even religion, is not a sign
that democracy even in the guise of a republic doesn’t work. There is money
on all sides, even with the independents. A parliamentary system would be
better but it is not possible to change from what we have. To get a better
reality one has to negotiate within the reality that is there.

By KDelphi, September 3 at 5:33 am #

Who said there is “no diff” between Obama and McSame? Nobody in this house!!
Of course Obama is “better” in some ways--but,. I’ve just decided in the past
few weeks, although I have been leaning independent everytime someome tries to
tell me how I must vote for Obama, and refuses to listen to any complaints
about his platform,that, given what my Medicaid HMO and two of my friends’
“exp. with the US death care system” (one is dead) that one is NOT a
progressive if they are backing a mkt based health care plan! I am tired of
voting for “better than”. If some people arent going to live so that other
people can make money, maybe some of us who knew them have a responsibility to
try to hold the broken, primitivistic system in the uS accountable. If you
dont know if youre going to be around for the next election , and youre
leaving behind sick family and friends, WHY is it so wrong to try to hold
people to account for the issue that has become paramount to yu? The lady in
here from Canada, all that she had done--yes she would be finanacialy ruined
in th US--well, I already am! I cannot have over $2500 worth of ANYTHING at
any one time. I was hit by a drunk with 6 mos to go on my state pension--so i
LIVE(if you wana call it that) on$560 a mo. after they take out about $100 for
money I had left after I bought my $50,000 house , which isnt even worth THAT
now. Obama has NO plan for that , other than “education"--people were
robbed--I saw the contracts. BTW, I’ve been in Mexico--I drank water out of a
fountain there--never got sick Italy either.. Maybe it was my strong stomach
or growin up in the country with an open well, but to insult Mexico to prove
we have “cleaner water” is a little off topic, dont you think? The US is
hardly in a positon , given its status in health care,how illegal workeers are
treated, warmongering, our “faith based” educational system, etc. We had bset
clean up our own back yard before we piss in others; i can understand the
inclination, since ours is so full now--but saying “well, we’re beter than” or
“the dems are better than” convinces almost no one. Thats what you want ot do,
right? Convince people? You want to win right? Not just blame it on someone
else? If you are in a goodpostiton with your health and coverage, good for
yu--no one is saying you cant keep it.If you want people in a BAD positoin as
far as health or health care--why shluld they care bout much els? AlterNet is
attacking Obam’s plan,CD has, --if he doesnt change it, he eil lose alot of
votes. No matter how you feel about anything--whether yo give a damn about
otherw or not--think of your glorious candidate--ask hinm to back HR
676--single payer--he’ll gain votes. Isnt that the issue you keep hariping on?
“He cannot win with single-payer”...well, he can win in states where its
desperate, like the Rust Belt. He needs those states. right? People in sttes
that are doing better have NO idea how much (and how many) have died inOhio,
Mich, Penn.--I can guarantee that, without a more progressive social agenda,
he wil not win in these states. Although I didnt like the way it was put,
maybe--when Obama said people around here turn to guns and God--its true--and
they will turn to McSame. I am an atheist who thinks al the guns should b e
melted down. Bur I dont control the state and trying to talk people out of it,
esp. as things get worse, is prob a losing strategy. Think on this--if you had
a heart attack right now, you would feel sure thouwould have ER treatm,ent,
right? Well, here, ifyou dont have $500 cash or a credit card with that
amopunt on it--you canjust lie ther and die. I am not lying. How can you
expect me to go with a mkt based oplanin light of this crap>? PS=--Obama, when
asked about Blackwater, said that “we couldnt get by in Iraq or New Orleans
without them”. Way off topic, dyt?

By casey, September 3 at 5:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Great! Now you report on this - after the coronation. Paul Krugman has been
saying this for the last 18 months.

By DaMick, September 2 at 7:33 pm #

True in a vacuum, like most extremes. But we’re talking about PEOPLE making
change, not parties. I pick Boxer in my fantasy draft because she is solid and
intelligent, cares deeply about people, environmental issues, and has been
vehemently anti-war from the get-go. Look at her record. If we were active
enough to get more thinking people like her into office, we’d be making
progress, a step at a time. And that’s the key: to make progress.

Great jazz is about improvising on the theme. And where geniuses such as
Charley Parker and Ella Fitzgerald produced great American art in the face of
rabid racism, we as progressive citizens for fair and equitable Democracy
should be improvising on the theme at hand, instead of the ideal we can
imagine. Again, the point is to start by dumping the neocon monster at the
wheel, and getting back on the road. Lots of metaphors, I know, I know…

One thing is for sure: activism of all sorts will not sleep regardless of who
is elected. My vote will simply be for the more palatable chance to correct
what ails us, and go from there. Wasting votes to prove convictions, as in
2000 with Nader, will simply make things worse. See: Bush/Cheney, Blackwater,
Diebold, Halliburton, etc. We’re in this dimension, whether we like it or not.
Let’s stop trying to write a symphony and improvise on the theme. We are the
ones who have to make the difference, and it’s crucial that we see that fact
for what it is: unavoidable.

By DaMick, September 2 at 7:04 pm #

Or Boxer / Feingold… yeah

By Leefeller, September 2 at 7:03 pm #

As we sit here and argue the finer points of this and that, selected for us
topics, all so well planned part of smoke and mirrors by the powers that be,
resolve is absent like accountability from our government. Some of the
posters we find on TD seem to support death watch USA, wolf killer palin and
the shuck and jive express. Support with a blind passion the simpleton
defining of us and them, we see partisanship as a religious cult, using
simplicity designed to enhance dissemination of lies among people.

All part of a planned shtick to take focus away from real inequities that
would possibly improve the slob on the streets own interests. Instead we see
this blind almost religious following of partisan politics, so be it.

My point is, the two party system is designed to eliminate thinking and reason
from the majority of the people.

By DaMick, September 2 at 7:01 pm #

Yeah, I hear you. Feinstein & Pelosi should take a long trip somewhere with
Lieberman and never come back…

As far as BB is concerned, she is the real McCoy, and I know where you’re
coming from. I’m proud to have her in our corner, as well. But I can still
dream can’t I...? But in the dream, it’s actually Boxer / Obama… ha ha

By cyrena, September 2 at 6:37 pm #

DaMick writes:

Hell, I wish Obama had picked Boxer to be his VP - a slam dunk for Hillary
voters and progressives alike - but what do I know?

~~~~

DaMick, I say you know a whole lot!! On Boxer, I’ve had the same thought many,
many, times. Of course, as a native Californian, myself, (and just SOOOO glad
to be back home after doing hard corporate slave time in Texas for more years
than I ever want to ponder) I can only selfishly say that while she would have
been the best pick for VP, I’m glad we have her here for us as our Senator. As
it is, we need a replacement for Diane Feinstein, (I wish Barbara Lee would do
that) and we just need to hold on to Barbara Boxer, at least until we’ve done
some other rearranging. Nancy Pelosi definitely has to go, and there are a few
others who need recycling (out) as well. So, on a purely selfish note, I’d
rather keep Boxer here for the time being.

By DaMick, September 2 at 6:05 pm #

ITW: Sticks & stones pal. If you want to insult people, why not go to a Fox
forum? We’re having a discussion. Either join in politely or butt out. If you
have some actual facts, or insight you’d like to pitch in, please do. I don’t
care if it’s from Jim Kramer or Homer Simpson - please just focus on sharing
something other than your view from the pedestal you’ve fashioned for
yourself. Your message will get across much better that way. Also, you may
want to delve a little deeper into this chain & consider the topic as we have
been pursuing since 8am this morning. The NPR link I offered on their series
on socialized medicine in Europe, called “Healthcare For All”, is a good place
to start and study, with particular interest on the German program, which
exists successfully alongside private medicine, and has a track record of 100+
years.

Thanks.

TW: Indeed, indeed. You’d think they were in 2nd grade… just kidding ;o]

By SCJ, September 2 at 5:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Quite being led like sheep to the slaughter. Obama’s voting record has always
been for the big corporations. Frankly he got voted in running against a
scandeled opponent, and capitalized on it , not unlike McCains current V.P
pick did in Alaska. The corporate media picked him along with the rest of th
etop elitists in this country. If you want change vote for a third party and
encourage others to do the same. A vote for Obama is a vote for more illegal
wars and more genocide in Afghanistan and Iraq, becaudse even if they do pull
the troops out they will leave 50,000 + to maintain the 14 military bases
there.

By yours truly, September 2 at 4:55 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

p.s.

Should Barack Obama’s support for a privatized health care system curb one’s
enthusiasm for his candidacy? Not unless he doesn’t make good on his
statement that he understands that change comes to, not from Washington D.C.,
which informs us that he’s a work in progress & it’s up to us to make sure
that he sees the light.

By yours truly, September 2 at 4:42 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Assuming that health, like food, water, housing and work is a right, then a
single payer health care system is the only way this can be brought about.
That’s clear from one finding alone, Medicare’s 3% administrative costs
compared to the private insurance overhead of at least 31%. That’s why all
the plans for health care systems based on investment owned companies are
two-tiered, meaning that those who can afford coverage get optimal care and
those who can’t, well, sorry, wish we could do more, but there’s just not
enough to go around.

Which means that under a privatized health care system some of us are going to
die for lack of care. How many? Upwards of 20,000 annually, based on how
many people died for want of coverage 5 years ago since there’s even more
without insurance today than back then.

Yet those who support privatization of health care remain adamant in their
opposition to single payer plans. Why? Can only be they put their
marketplace ideology before the well-being and lives of actual people, that’s
why. In other words they couldn’t care less about us. Which is why we must
ignore them and go for the single payer system.

By Inherit The Wind, September 2 at 4:24 pm #

I’ve told you all once:

Obama needs to ask Jim Cramer which analysts he should consult for an
effective health care system at minimum cost and maximum effectiveness.

Nobody here knows $#!t from Shinola next to the folks I’m thinking of.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it’s like listening to 2nd graders discussing
quantum physics.

By Tony Wicher, September 2 at 4:22 pm #

DaMick,

Well, you and I appear to be on the same wavelength.
Even now the Bush Administration has not yet trashed the country to the point
of becoming Mexico. But we are looking more like it every day. What I say is
that Obama is our only chance to turn the country around, and anyone who can’t
see this is objectively not a real progressive and should be vigorously
opposed by real progessives at this crucial time. What are these people trying
to do, get McCain elected? That’s all I want to know.

By DaMick, September 2 at 4:08 pm #

This is hilarious. I can’t believe I am defending the government here, but
seriously… have you ever been to Mexico? I am a native San Diegan, and spend
part of my life in Baja California, where I have many friends. Before you
start trashing everything that our government does, try a gander at the
infrastructure in Mexico. Last I read we have near 90% clean drinking water in
this country. That’s a problem, sure, for far too many people are going with
sub-standard water for the ‘wealthiest nation in the world [blah blah blah]’ -
but seriously---if you drank a thimble full of the stuff that comes out of
many taps in Mexico you’d be on the toilet for a week.

Again, what’s needed in this day & age is PRAGMATISM fellow progressive types,
not vitriol and ideals. If you honestly think that there would be no
difference between a McCain and Obama administration, you need to do a little
more research. I don’t imagine McCain would be advised by environmentalists,
nor that Obama would hire a puppet like Stephen Johnson to head the EPA and
bury crucial findings about the dire health effects of greenhouse gases.
Extremism is just that: extreme. As an independent progressive myself, I find
valuable insight and ideas in a a number of candidates, though do not entirely
agree with any one of them - from Kucinich to Ron Paul to Obama. All of them
have brilliant ideas, yet are lacking in other areas. Hell, I wish Obama had
picked Boxer to be his VP - a slam dunk for Hillary voters and progressives
alike - but what do I know?

It’s this: it doesn’t help something to grow by shouting at it. And while
vastly imperfect, and in serious SERIOUS need of an overhaul, our country
still has it’s merits. My grandfather, Dan Bodie, who just passed away at
almost 93, fought in Okinawa side by side with his brother, witnessed the
signing of the peace treat with Japan, and went on to raise a
multi-generational family, after helping to establish the first painter’s
union in San Diego, and painted battleships and churches and radio towers, did
not work his ass off and defend his country from tyranny to have us let it go
to pot, raving from our chairs into electric boxes. Read some Confucius. It
starts from the seed, my friends. Go plant and water it from your
uncontaminated spigots.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 3:55 pm #

Lets not forget--"blame the victin” is thr great American pasttime!
Unfortunately, the Dems seem to share in its self-righteous delights almsot as
much as the GOP does, these days. And its not just a disppointment--its
deadly.Cilcsster--I’m sorry you had so much pain. I am very glad that you were
able to get outside the US and get it taken care of, so you are here. I hope
for this for all of us. But, some people want to keep believing the Harry and
Louise bullshit. You can be sure that they are either healthy or have good
coverage...sigh.Where is the real left and what have you guys don ewith them?

By cilcsster, September 2 at 3:36 pm #

Marshall, you can talk to all the people you want, but I had a melanoma on my
ear requiring a day in the hospital for plastic surgery in ‘01, in ‘02 I had a
carotid procedure done, in ‘04 I had a triple by-pass (just like Cheney did),
and later that year the other artery in my neck done, followed by a stroke (in
the hospital). I was on life support for a month before being moved to rehab
for 6 weeks, and when I was released had occupational and physiotherapists
coming to the house for months. Do me a favor...add all this up and tell me
what the out-of-pocket expenses would be in The State of California. Got it?
Well, I pay $100 medicare a year, and $4.11 per perscription, now add that up
and deduct it from the figure you got for California. I don’t know you and
perhaps the math is a bit heavy for you, but I would have been financially
ruined if I had been living in Ontario California instead of Ontario Canada.
Any questions?
Oh, and about wait time. I waited to get a room for several hours. Was it
worth it? Sort of a silly question isn’t it. No Canadians are not forced to
go anywhere for medical care, any more than Americans are forced to go to
India or Thailand for it which many of them do.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 2:37 pm #

I’m dying to hear someon say “That sounds like a good start. i would back
that, I think.”. Please?? I feel really hopeless about this issue. Please? I’m
not asking for myself--if you lived in dying Ohio right now, and see how many
homeless, the food banks empty, etc. you would understand,. I spent years as a
social worker--so I guess I notice it more--but more peopl eNEED to notice, if
we are to prevent sliping into Thire World Staus. If you think it doesn t
sound good--I could see if I can find the links--they may have changed it. I’m
desperate, people, OK? What happend to giving people “hope”?

By Adam, September 2 at 2:30 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Why does everyone expect our politicians to do anything? That is NOT their
job… their job is to win elections and piss on the people who voted for them!
When was the last time the US government did anything for anyone… Liberating
Iraq? LOL

By KDelphi, September 2 at 2:14 pm #

HR 676, I assume you mean, right? I have not read the latest revised (Conyers,
Lee--boith and basically, entire Human Services Subcommittee and CBC all
support it), but it involves Medicare for all. People with certain incomes
would pay a certain amount, there would be a mandatory to get at least bare
bones. (If you think you dont need any--youre wrong--youcould get hit by a
drunk driver tomorrow, and dont say you wouldnt want to be trreated--no dr. is
going to do that--unlses your in an HMO--just kidding!)It would work like
Medicare, and , if you could not afford it , you would be subvsizied. All
measures to save money would be implemented (like preventive care, stop
smoking supplies, necessary med. supplies)and BULK< BID UPON prescriptions--no
more “pay full price”. (We now pay the highest prices in hte world for Rx, as
you may know)There are people in this room who aer from Canada who say this is
just not a prob. I’m not saying it never is--but if you have no coverage at al
now--it cannot be worse. I was treated in Canada--it was great, but aI was not
realy “living” htere; but I WAS living ni Denmark, and the care was immediate
(it was an er thing) excellent, and they made fun of me when I tried to pay!
People in other advanced countries really think we are stupid that way. I
agree. What could be more important to a progressive administration than
provioding for the least--the peole onthe stree. What if vets didnt have to go
to the VA at all and we could jsut update our medical system--I realize that
all that would tak awhile--we’d need to cut spending on other hingsd liek war,
roll back tax cuts. etc.But, I think HR 676 uis a helluva good start and I
just would LOVE to see someone support them on it.

By Marshall, September 2 at 2:00 pm #

By cilcsster, September 2 at 11:29 am #

“Where are you getting the rubbish about health care in Canada.”

My information comes from news reports, analysis, and discussions with
Canadians and Americans.

And btw: I’m not talking about the credentials of doctors in Canada - Canada
has excellent doctors. What I’m talking about is:

1) Wait times for important procedures in Canada are a real problem, forcing
many to go to the U.S. for critical care. Canadians are twice as likely to
wait at least 4 hours in an emergency room before treatment, for example:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publicati
ons_show.htm?doc_idH2678

2) Access to the latest medical technology is often nonexistent outside of
major metro areas.

3) The type of care available through the govt. program is inconsistent across
provinces.

Consequently, there’s an ongoing debate (as well as policy changes) moving the
funding system back towards a more privatized model. In fact, Canada’s system
is only public as far as the payment of provider costs; the actual provider
system itself is mostly private.

Also FYI: while WHO ranks the U.S. as 37th globally, Canada isn’t much better
at 30th. But of course WHO isn’t the last word in health care ranking - it’s
just one opinion and has been criticized for its methods and conclusions.

By DaMick, September 2 at 1:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Good post Cyrena. Thanks for the discussing details, and not just the ideals.
Again, i’d like to point out that obama’s plan is similar to an effective
german program that has been in place for well over 100 years. And it’s true:
nothing is free. Example:

“The health care system ... is not funded by government taxes. But it is
compulsory. All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income to a
nonprofit insurance company called a sickness fund. Their employers pay about
the same amount. Workers can choose among 240 sickness funds.

Basing premiums on a percentage-of-salary means that the less people make, the
less they have to pay. The more money they make, the more they pay. This
principle is at the heart of the system. Germans call it “solidarity.” The
idea is that everybody’s in it together, and nobody should be without health
insurance.”

Source: NPR

KDelphi: why not explain the Resolution briefly - that would be hugely
constructive to the discussion for those such as Cyrena, who haven’t yet had
the chance to look into it :o]

By KDelphi, September 2 at 1:19 pm #

If Obama would settle on one, that doesnt involve privat4 industry, it would
be more in line with other adbvanced countries. It is reported constantly and
people from other countries are just amazed. Moore’s “Sicko” was a good
example (s) of SOME of it--but, I think you have to be in a govt funded HMO to
know how really bad it is. Once you get on--you cant get off.I guess the only
t hing to do is move to Canad (if they will have some of us) until the US
wakes up. Canad may have something else to say about that. I think it would be
“Fix your opwn country”.

By truthreader3, September 2 at 1:15 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

It is 174 posts before this post, and no one mentioned the real reason
politicians are talking about health care for the people. The REAL REASON is
that if the current trend continue, then the insurance companies and Hospitals
and pharma componiesd will be in deep trouble for the simple reason that the
citizens will not be ablle to pay.
So, the ONLY objective of the politicians is how to help the Medical/Insurance
complex. The end result will be that more of the payments will come from the
government but the role of the Insurance/Medical complex will still be the
same and they will rake in more dollars and believe me for less service. With
these infamous tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, then the extra costs
will come from more taxes and fees levied on the average Joes/Janes who cannot
win while corrupt and bought out politicians are in charge. The average
Joes/Janes will keep getting poorer and poorer.
And yes, forget any thing about a national health
care sytem or even a single payer insurance system.

By DaMick, September 2 at 1:12 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey - be as passionate as you want about your ideas. My point is that
injecting accusations and insults at people you don’t know outside of a few
posts on a website doesn’t help get your message across. Basically I get where
you’re coming from, and while not a fan of labels (left, right, up, down,
pink, black, blue, whatever), I’ve been actively supporting progressive causes
and responsible Democracy for over two decades. So be careful who you put into
pigeon holes. The “real left” is just as illusory as true liberty. We are all
children of a very tarnished human history. Make the best of what you have,
keep moving forward with conviction, and above all, respect one another. The
minute you start personally defiling the neocons, you run the risk of joining
their ranks. So much for progress.

Peace Brother & Sister Humanoids

By cyrena, September 2 at 1:12 pm #

KDelphi, September 2 at 10:21 am #
cyrena, if he supports health care for all who want it, why wil he not support
HR 676. He is more concerned with jobs at HMOs, and the DNC is concerned with
funding their political aristocracy. The GOP is worse--no kidding. Peace. LOL

~~~~~~
KDelphi,

I can’t answer the question on HR 676 or why Obama didn’t vote for it, because
I haven’t read the bill, or his comments on it. That is only because I haven’t
had time, but I do intend to read it –thoroughly- as well as any comments of
record that Obama has made in respect to that. Until I have complete knowledge
of the language of the legislation, and whatever analysis might be available,
I wouldn’t comment either way. But, I promise to read it as soon as I can.

Meantime, can I tell you that this isn’t about the “DNC”. These are dangerous
generalizations KDelphi. The problem with the health care system in the US,
(which is far better in some places/states than it is in others) is most
certainly determined by political implications, because the Corporate State IS
the Government, and that co-entanglement of corps/government is a political
‘coming of age’ that began to take place decades ago, and is NOT relegated to
the DNC, or even the GOP for that matter. This is a system/apparatus that
cannot be dismissed so easily as oh, the DNC just wants to fund THEIR
political aristocracy. In fact, it’s grossly naïve to even suggest that. If
there is ANY ‘political persuasion’ that can be ‘blamed’ for the morphing of a
‘managed’ democracy or an ‘inverted totalitarian’ structure, it would actually
be the conservatives and the neocons. And yes, that same entity of the
corporate neolibs. But this isn’t a DNC thing, and it never has been.
In fact, the whole thing (HMO) started out as the best thing since sliced
bread 4 decades ago, and specifically FOR the middle class. The original
participants in this program were the teachers, the policemen, the firemen,
the postal workers, and on and on. It was UNIONS, (at least back when they had
a bit of a presence) who negotiated for these plans on behalf of their
members, and the original intent was basically a very ‘socialist’ one. For
reasonable premiums, (often covered entirely or in part by employers and
unions) an individual or family could have access to any medical service that
they needed, WITHOUT concern for meeting deductibles, or other out of pocket
expenses like the standard 20% of any given hospital or medical service that
most insurers provided at the time. For instance, Blue Cross, Blue Shield,
Prudential, or any of the others, generally offered plans that would pay
(reimburse) 80% of expenses, AFTER a deductible had been met, and the patient
was responsible for the other 20%, and had to file all of the claims and the
whole nine yards.
HMO’s made it far simpler to address major and unexpected medical expenses by
basically covering it all. Routine office visits were a set fee, (like $10.00)
and back then, a prescription for ANYTHING was $5.00. Anything requiring
hospitalization was covered 100%. In fact, AT THE ONSET, HMO’s were very
similar to what you are raving about as being available in other countries
like Canada and SOME European nations. (you keep referring to the EU as if
those member states are part of a national system identical to the US and that
too is incorrect). The European Union isn’t even that old, and their medical
care system is not set up on a national level the way Canada’s is. It’s
dangerous to mix them up so generally, because it is also INCORRECT to say
that this medical in Canada or portions of Europe is ‘free’. NOTHING is ‘free’
in terms of goods or services. The people providing them have to eat too, and
the equipment, supplies, and basic infrastructure that makes up a medical
provider system doesn’t just grow on trees or become available by benefit of
the Oceans delivering dialysis machines to the doors of Kaiser or anyplace
else.

By cyrena, September 2 at 1:10 pm #

2 of 2

All of that said, the original intent behind these HMO’s was very ‘socialist’.
In fact, back in the day when my first spouse was a physician in training, he
WANTED to go to work for an HMO, because he felt that he wouldn’t be
restricted in ordering the appropriate care for any patient, based on what
they may or may not be able to afford. If somebody (anybody) needs an
expensive procedure, or expensive medication (on a long term basis) even if
one was ‘covered’ by the old standard policies, the out of pocket 20% could
add up very quickly. (take it from one who knows). So HMO’s have not *always*
been a bad thing.

That’s not to say that all people selected them, because there were drawbacks,
at least at the time. My mother, (who was a career health care worker in what
was then the ‘private’ industry) hated these HMO’s, and particularly Kaiser
Permenente, (the largest at the time) but hers was far more an emotional
rather than practical critique, and not necessarily any more accurate than
those who critique systems that they really don’t understand. She complained
that one could not ‘choose’ their own physician at these places, and that was
true for a while. But eventually, that changed as well, and one COULD choose
there own, though on occasions, (and dependent on the purpose of the visit)
any qualified physical or other health care professional can provide the
service. It is no different from having a family doctor who might be on
vacation when one becomes ill, and so you get whomever is on call for the
doctor at the time. And if one needed a specialist for any sort of medical
problem, all of those were available within the same system. There could be a
lengthy wait for some things, but that happens with physicians outside the
system as well.
So it was not until the Insurance Industry merged itself into the Health Care
Industry to become one and the same, that the HMO’s became the exploitive
monsters that they’ve become, and that has everything to do with Corporate
Power and is systemic to the elite, regardless of their political persuasion.
What is has become now IS an exploitive monster devoted only to their bottom
line, which means denying care and selectively choosing those who they will
agree to cover, or canceling their coverage arbitrarily.

Meantime, you seem to lack any realistic sense of JUST how many Americans are
employed in the health care sector, vile as you think it may be, and that
INCLUDES HMO’s. They work to provide health care to anyone who needs it, and
while HMO employees are rarely paid at the level of those in private practice,
(though that too is changing) they DO work, and they DO pay the appropriate
taxes to the national coffers. COULD they be incorporated into a national
system/structure? I would say yes. But not overnight. Such an apparatus takes
time to develop, unless you’re suggesting that the State just ‘take over’ the
entire existing infrastructure, and I think even YOU know what THAT sounds
like.

Anyway, I promise to read the bill if you’ll promise to break things down a
little bit, to look inside, and see how these things really operate.

By thebeerdoctor, September 2 at 1:08 pm #

re: Tony Wicher, Aegrus

I understand Tony, the reality of political expediency becomes difficult to
explain. Aegrus is closer to the point about getting rid of rascals. Believe
me, who is the Governor of my state, affects our life much more than who is
president. In fact, it might be wise to try and get as many reasonable people
into Congress, so in case of an electoral catastrophe, natural or otherwise,
the legislative branch will not just be a door mat for the executive.
Good god how twisted the newspeak has become! Ask yourself: who passes the
laws? That is suppose to be congress’s function. What is the chief job of the
executive branch? To uphold and defend the constitution by executing the laws,
and act as commander-in-chief ONLY when Congress has declared war. And what is
the third branch of the government for? The Supreme Court is suppose to be the
final arbiter on whether a law is constitutional or not. And that’s it.
So all this fawning over the executive pageant exists only because the people
have forgotten how the government is suppose to work. Until you have a
Congress exercising its actual constitutional function, by asserting its
powers as established by the Constitution; then all this politicking is merely
a tired joke

By KDelphi, September 2 at 1:06 pm #

If there are 10,000 people working for HMOs (I’m tqaking you word for it),
they would then work for the govt.Those that did not--would have to find other
jobs, lik the millions who lsot manufacturing jobs. 20,000 people would be
saved the first year. If even half of them vote, they would vote for whoever
decided that their lives werew worth more than the alighty fuckin dollar bill!

By Leisure suit Larry, September 2 at 1:04 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama is a private joke. as corporatist as Hillary, and as Connected as John
Gotti, he’s a Judas goat. He’s against war in Iraq, but not so much Iran or
Pqakistan, He’s for Health insurance, but only if it doesn’t riock the boat.
He’s for “working class folks” and appoints the Senator from Citi Group as his
running mate. Who is Barak Hussain Obama?

Is this where all the people who said Obama was a shill, get to say “I told
you so?”

By wish i knew, September 2 at 12:58 pm #

Personally, I would rather HR 676 go before a President Obama rather than a
President McCain… it seems to me that is the choice that is really before us
at this point.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 12:49 pm #

Ok--I’ll make nice, while 20,000 people die this year, many of them friends of
mine. Where are you guys and what have you done with the real left?

By Tony Wicher, September 2 at 12:00 pm #

By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, September 2 at 11:45 am

Also, don’t forget the tens of thousands of voters working in the health
insurance industry. If you were Obama “running to put them out of work,”
could you expect their vote? No way, Jose! Do you need their vote? Si way,
Jose!

A good politician who wants to end an industry will have options and help for
people employed in that industry to move on to other comparable jobs.
Probably in phases.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually, no such displacement of health insurance industry WORKERS is
necessary. Basically, these people will keep their jobs but be working for a
new boss - the government. The people who will be displaced are only the
relatively few health insurance industry OWNERS and STOCKHOLDERS. The question
is how would they be compensated for having their “private property”
nationalized? I’m inclined to say fuck ‘em. They have been ripping us off long
enough. Needless to say, I’m sure they would vehemently disagree.

By DaMick, September 2 at 11:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Please, let’s keep this civilized and clear of personal attacks. It dilutes an
important conversation. While I may not agree with Marshall about much, he is
also entitled to his opinion, however skewed we may consider it.

Rock on brothers & sisters!

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:55 am #

If Obama does not bacdk HR 676, he will lose my vote and lots of others. Its
that simple.

By Tony Wicher, September 2 at 11:53 am #

By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, September 2 at 11:45 am

#If I could interject, I think the reason Obama avoids talking about
single-payer is not because he is against it but right-wingers have their
“socialist” radar up and running and will pounce on anything that even
slightly resembles anything government-run.
-----------------------------------------------------
Single payer does mean nationalizing the health insurance industry. It
constitutes socialism, no doubt about it. I agree that although Obama probably
favors it, he has not felt politically strong enough, so far, to advocate it
outright. If California manages to pass single payer on the state level as
heavyrunner hopes, I’m sure that will change.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:52 am #

I would assume that Rep Conyers has plans to deal with that. If I could “write
a US plan”, I would bring helpin from Japan, EU and Canada. I thibnk the
“voters dont want it” is a big myth. If we can pay taxes fora ll thsi other
shit--and you know what I’m atalking about, and there is no rioting in the
streetzs over taxes--?? Justy how DO other countries do it? Have you ever had
abnyone die in front of you because the VA would not treat them because their
disability was not"service related” ?! Its not fun. For me, anyway.You just
ignore the facts because you are selfish

By DaMick, September 2 at 11:49 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Yeah, Marshall - it really is the poor Mexicans fault. Uh-huh. Lettuce pickers
and dish washers and janitors… right.

Maybe if we spent our money on our own people, instead of funding illegal oil
wars and global pollution by selling out our citizenry and future generations
to foreign lenders, at the expense of our economy, social stability and
infrastructure we could actually come to a reasonable bi-partisan plan to
promote the health and well-being of the Nation.

“$2.4 trillion of...$10 trillion national debt is in the hands of foreign
governments, half of which is in the hands of just two countries: Japan and
China. In the long term, this figure is expected to skyrocket and America
could struggle to negotiate with its foreign creditors.

Finding buyers for American treasury bonds is usually considered a good thing,
but China is a problematic creditor due to potential strategic conflicts.
Sending a “sell” order that roils markets may not give China a veto over U.S.
foreign policy, but it can increase the cost of any U.S. policy that China
opposes.

As it stands, every American taxpayer’s share of current foreign-owned debt is
$19,750...”

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/947767803

‘Needs work’ is a gross understatement. Needs to be scrapped sounds far more
accurate.

By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, September 2 at 11:45 am #

reply to KDelphi:

If I could interject, I think the reason Obama avoids talking about
single-payer is not because he is against it but right-wingers have their
“socialist” radar up and running and will pounce on anything that even
slightly resembles anything government-run.

I realize single-payer does not translate into gov.-run, but you know the
right-winger mentality, especially when it has little to nothing else to grab
on to.

There’s the very sensitive tax issue. How would you handle that?

Right now, Obama has to stay away from single-payer. After he gets elected, I
think we’ll see it in due time.

A good politician who wants to end an industry will have options and help for
people employed in that industry to move on to other comparable jobs.
Probably in phases. You see, it’s just not as simple as some here seem to
belive it is. It takes time. Like getting out of Iraq. If I were involved
in these decisions, I’d surely want to take a good look at the process by
which other countries may have moved from insured health care to single-payer.

It might be hard to come up with a valid, useful comparable.

What would you do, just have businesses and individuals forward their checks
next week to the government? Do you have the government set up for that? I
think this is going to be a gargantuan task, taking a lot of people a lot of
time to set up. Canada has, what, 30 million people. We have 10 times that.
France, 60 million.

Does this make sense?

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:40 am #

Why dont people just admit--the DNC wants teh $$ and you gusy dont want to pay
taxes. Just say it. Put yourself on the line for criticism of your actual
beliefs and stop slandering other country’s healht care, Its just bullshit! HR
676 is the LEAST we shlould be able to ask of a “progressive”.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:39 am #

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:36 am #

THANK YOU!! I was having trouble findin g your old psots! i KNEW there was
someone right in here to prove it wrong! I, too have been treated in Canada,
and the EU. It is not just free--it is BETTER! And at least the world doesnot
think they are an inhumane bunch of barbarians! SHAME on “progressives” who
dont support a single payer sytem!

By KDelphi, September 2 at 11:32 am #

HR 676! All I know about it is talking to people from these places and being
treated there--Canada and EU. People I stayed with in countries of hte EU werw
all satisfied--even the rich--but, there, they care abou their fellow
citizens, so, youre right--maybe not! I do not see how in heell we can “reduce
costs” and stil make sure they make a profit! I dont hear anyone sayin g that
people should not be able to biu supplementary plans--I’m sure the insurance
industry qwould be glad to oblige you! But, for people who are on current govt
prog. which vary from state to state, even the very basics are often not
covered. I would be better of staying off Medicaid--I did not know Ohio would
go to an HMO! So, I impoverished myself fo rnothing! I could do better with NO
care. I cannot access charity care (only “indigent") no dr. can treat me for
free, and no one--including family--is allowed, legally , to help me pay for
care. Think abou thow bad that has to be, We hear these arguments all the
time. A couple mos. ago , Torerys in UK were proposing a “refornm” to the NHS
in UK--the riots ij the st. werwe huge! The signs read “No US style health
care for uK!”.Something is VERY wrong here, people. Ignore and you will lose
votes.

By cilcsster, September 2 at 11:29 am #

TO MARSHALL! Where are you getting the rubbish about health care in Canada.
I challenge that!!!! Perhaps the Harper thugs are thinking of taking away our
health system (which works most of the time) are getting to you, or is it the
health insurance companies? I am living proof that the system here in The
Province of Ontario is light years ahead of anything in the United States in
that respect. If you think the credentials of Canadian doctors are inferior
to those in other countries I suggest you go back to school!

By Marshall, September 2 at 11:22 am #

By KDelphi, September 2 at 10:30 am #

You’re right that we rank 38th by WHO. But the reasons for this aren’t as
simple as “we have the 38th worst healthcare system”.

The root reason behind our WHO ranking is the high number of uninsured.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 37% of the uninsured live in households
making more than $50,000 a year, most of which CAN afford health insurance but
choose not get it. And 20% of uninsured are not U.S. citizens - another
reason our health statistics are skewed. 1 in 3 uninsured are eligible for
government insurance, but aren’t enrolled.

The bottom line is that while our system isn’t good, it’s nowhere near as bad
as it’s painted. And while Britain, Canada and France rank higher than the
U.S. by WHO, this isn’t the full picture. For example, did you know that the
majority of French people have an additional private policy to cover what
their public insurance doesn’t cover. And their public insurance isn’t
entirely public as it’s funded by three payers: workers, employers, and the
govt.

The U.S. system needs work, but throwing out the private companies isn’t the
answer.

By DaMick, September 2 at 11:11 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Marshall -

Agreed the U.K. system is severely flawed and more resembles the U.S. than
it’s neighbors. But your proclamations about ‘socialized medicine failing
elsewhere’ is not accurate. Again, I will refer you to the ongoing NPR series,
“Healthcare For All”, and point out that Germany has a fair and
well-functioning system that covers everybody and determines worker
contribution on a sliding scale. In fact, they have had effective social
medicine in place for over a century. Check your facts before you start
playing the party line. It’s tired and full of hot air, much like most of the
GOP (Ron Paul excepted). Democracy should be inclusive, and work to help ALL
of the people it represents prosper, not sell out them out to the highest
bidder.

Peace Brother Humanoid

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9 1972152

By KDelphi, September 2 at 10:30 am #

Marshall, there was someone posting here yesterday, whom everyone seemed to
choose to ignore, who has dual citizenship. She certainly does not fel that
way. I’ve been treated in Canada, EU . Accordin tio the World Health Org. ,
the US ranks , 38th , I think (or is it lower?) in health care. Why everyone
in the US hangs onto this for-profit system is completley beyond me, but
since, the entire free world disagrees with it--dont you think you should give
it another look? I just dont see the reasoning! We spend more and get less.
Period.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 10:21 am #

cyrena, if he supports health care for all who want it, why wil he not support
HR 676. He is more concerned with jobs at HMOs, and the DNC is concerned with
funding their political aristocracy. The GOP is worse--no kidding. Peace. LOL

By Marshall, September 2 at 10:21 am #

The author is right that Liberals are a spineless lot, but that’s not the real
problem. The real problem is that their utopian political solutions are
bankrupt.

The author makes several references to Canadian healthcare as a model when, in
reality, it is not a successful system. Very long and sometimes fatal wait
times coupled with a lack of access to modern medical technology outside metro
areas are two reasons Canada is moving towards re-privatization. And the
Canadian government’s regulatory cap on drug prices doesn’t come free - it
stifles innovation from drug companies who won’t develop medicine if they
can’t make a profit. And of course it’s taxpayer funded, so everyone pays
(regardless of what Michael Moore believes). In fact, France and Britian’s
nationalized systems are not faring well either. As is always the case with
socalization, the initial results look promising until fiscal reality sets in
coupled with the lack of market driven innovation and things begin to crumble.

The number of uninsured in the U.S. actually dropped by a million last year.
And a good chunk of those counted as uninsured are illegal aliens. We should
first be addressing our immigration issues if we want to improve the
healthcare system. Ultimately, socialized medicine in the U.S. would fail as
it’s failing elsewhere, and McCain and Obama know it. So blame their
positions on a healthcare conspiracy, or wake up to the fact that your
proposed alternative model is a proven failure. The U.S. must first address
the base problems that make healthcare such a difficult issue to begin with
before ANY changes to the system will have an effect. And ultimately, there
may be no good solution - only less bad ones.

By Tony Wicher, September 2 at 10:17 am #

By thebeerdoctor, September 2 at 1:50 am #

re: Tony Wicher

“Michael Moore supports Obama as does every other actual progressive in the
world just now.”

Tony, don’t you think that is just a bit over the top? Michael Moore likes to
stir things up, coming out of the catholic social conscience movement that was
so powerful with its “if you want peace, work for justice” message, a few
decades ago. But Mike Moore is what he is: a millionaire movie director and
producer, who thrives on the cottage industry he has created for himself.
Because he supports Senator Obama, I am suppose to do what?
---------------------------------------------------
I was only saying this for the benefit of people who trust and like Michael
Moore, such as 911truthdotorg, who was actually quoting Moore. I was just
pointing out that even though we all agree that Obama’s health insurance plan
is a poor substitute for the Canadian-style single payer plan which Moore is
promoting in “Sicko”, nevertheless Moore is a very strong Obama backer and
does not regard this as a reason for not backing him. Nor should anyone else
with any progressive instincts and political sense. CONSIDER THE ALTERNATIVE.
That’s all I’m saying. Those who cannot understand that politics is always a
choice of real alternatives should find some other way to spend their time.
Whatever your disagreements with Obama, the only alternative is senile
warmonger woman-degrading McCain. People who can’t understand this are not
progressives, in my view.

By cyrena, September 2 at 10:07 am #

By KDelphi, September 2 at 7:08 am #
• “It is NOT better than Hillsry’s, and certainly not better than John
Edwards--BOTH covered everyone!! I greatly preferred Edwards’, which was
nationalized, as well as universal. Obama’s is neither. 15 m will stil NOT be
covered under Obama’s plan. WHICH 15 m would lbe left out? The healthy,
younmg, rich easy to insure? I dont think so. “

KDelphi,

With all due respect, you appear to have a very serious blind spot on this
issue, and from your posts, it doesn’t “appear” at least, that you have event
looked beyond the surface into ANY of the plans that you are comparing,
because this is incorrect information as you are presenting it, and in context
with the whole.

You too, have failed to realize that while NONE of the plans from any
democratic candidate ever offered a single payer health care plan, (aside from
Kucinich, and we still don’t know exactly how he was going to implement that
plan without consequences somewhere to the apparatus somewhere else) Obama
DOES have a plan (all along included in the proposal) to offer access to
ANYONE WHO CHOOSES to a medicare type system. No, it would not be ‘free’, and
neither is Part B of the current medicare system available to seniors and the
disabled who have paid into the SS system over a period of time. However, the
premiums are reasonable enough, that most people do opt into that optional
coverage.

You’re getting side-tracked away from the reality by these created numbers. X
number won’t be covered, and all of that. That’s old campaign Clinton
propaganda, that doesn’t reflect the reality of the day. Her plan would have
made it MANDATORY for ALL people to purchase health care coverage, (from the
Insurance Companies) similar to the requirement for car insurance. There is no
way that she could have enforced such a mandate, in the way that such mandates
are enforced in the similar example of car insurance.

If one chooses to operate a motor vehicle, one MUST purchase insurance. If one
fails to provide proof of such insurance, (at least in many States) one cannot
obtain a driver’s license or license/register a motor vehicle. In the State of
Texas, one cannot even RENEW their Driver’s License without providing proof of
insurance, irregardless of whether they actually own a car. How was Clinton
going to FORCE every single citizen to PURCHASE health care insurance? She
couldn’t. And unless she COULD, those numbers of who is covered and who is
not, is just so much hooey.
Obama’s proposal MAKES AVAILABLE, to anyone who chooses, an affordable option
for coverage, and it prevents these insurance companies from discriminating
against demographics or individuals for things like ‘pre-existing’ conditions,
or from canceling their coverage arbitrarily, based on the corporate bottom
line which holds that these claimants bite into their profits.

His proposal would include this PUBLIC, (again, medicare type plan) that
people could choose in lieu of the ‘private’ coverage, and yet no one would be
FORCED to put out money for insurance coverage that they may not want or be
able to afford. Amazing as it may be to you, some people may in fact opt out.
There are people, (like my late father) who absolutely refuse to SEEK medical
care under any circumstances, so why would they wanna pay for it? (sadly for
him, he DID pay for it, and wound up being used as a guinea pig for the health
care industry as a way to milk the system. But, as he was in a coma, he did
not have the capacity to reject the various and sundry procedures they
inflicted on him).

It’s generally a good practice to put aside the rhetoric, (even if only
temporarily) to look at the nuts and bolts of any apparatus, before we can get
a clear picture of the consequences of any legislation or decision.

By Aegrus, September 2 at 9:43 am #

Dr.Beer, you’re partially right. Allowing the Republicans to filibuster would
bring their stubbornness to the fore-front of discussion. Political theater
does have its benefits. Still, we should work to get as many Republicans out
of office as possible, and dump the lame duck Democrats too.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 9:07 am #

Well, I’m not sure what that meand (did I say it cant be done? I support
HR676!), but as Hightower said, “Those who say it cant be done, should get out
of the way of those who are doing it”. HR676!

By felicity, September 2 at 8:48 am #

KDelphi

I always remember that people who never want to try anything because
everything in the end fails are the same people who smell flowers and
immediately look for a coffin.

By thebeerdoctor, September 2 at 8:42 am #

I am surprised that people still fall for the veto-proof majority excuse for
not actually working to get meaningful legislation, such as HR676, passed.
This is the same line Senator Rockefeller used when John MacArthur asked him
why they haven’t stopped the Iraq occupation. Never mind that any congress
with a spine could keep sending up new legislation, or, as Newt and the gang
did in the last decade, stop passing legislation altogether.
The veto-proof vote excuse, is a convenient alibi for the elected to escape
their responsibilities.

By Fergal Bedlam, September 2 at 8:17 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Actually versions of Obama’s plan have already been proven to work very
successfully in Europe, without unfairly burdening workers or employers. Check
out NPR’s ongoing series, “Healthcare For All” - link below. Germany’s system
is a good example of this.

One personal comment to self-righteous lefties: be pragmatic and do your
research before declaring that something new won’t work. The point, that has
been well detailed here in previous posts, is to promote change by removing
the neocons first. Progressive ideals may then take further root and grow, as
will the “green economy.” Sometimes smart people forget that we are only
human, and these things take time - especially after the monsters we’ve had
running us into the ground the past two administrations.

Enjoy the series:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9 1972152

By KDelphi, September 2 at 7:55 am #

If the GD House (pelosi) would pass HR 676, and SEND it to the Senate--it
woulod be a start! She is SO sold out! And I had such high expectations. For
about a year--I kept saying, “Oh, they dont have enough of a majority” blah,
blah--NOTHING got done. The min wage law is horrendous-I know, W wouldnt have
signed more. But Obama will NOT back HR 676 because “people working for HMOs
would lose their jobs"--how BS is that?! They could work for he new natl
healht service. No one stoped GM et al from moving because they would lose
manufacturing jobs. Besides, peopple making $$ of of others misery (war, death
care) should go into other lines of work!

By KDelphi, September 2 at 7:51 am #

At least Hillary’s included everyone--save 20,000 people a year. Sure , it
worked with death insurance cos. , but Obama has gotten more from
Kaiser-permanente, HMOs, etc. than ANY OTHER CANDIDATE! (Mother Jones , June
issue) His plan would slow the march to full coverage--if he really wants to
cover everyone--why the HELL not back HR 676?? WHY keep saying “every CHILD
should be covered” , if you mean to cover everyone? look, hes gonna lose votes
over this. Dont give people nothing left to lose--its dangerous. ALL the
economic woes of he country are tied to our stupidass, stand alone,
capitalist, profit befoer people “health care insurtance”! NOBODY else does it
that way anymore--if they ever did! There have been people on this post that
have described how it works elsewhere--but youguys just ignore and say “we
cant do it” . Bullshit. Obama does not want to. Period.

By Fahrenheit 451, September 2 at 7:33 am #

This old man, he played one,
He played nick nack on my drum.

Nick nack paddy wack, give a dog a bone,
This old man came rolling home.

This old man, he played two,
He played nick nack on my shoe.

This old man, he played three,
He played nick nack on the tree.

This old man, he played four,
He played nick nack on the door.

This old man, he played five,
He played nick nack on the hive.

This old man, he played six,
He played nick nack picking up sticks

This old man, he played seven,
He played nick nack up to heaven.

This old man, he played eight,
He played nick nack on the gate.

This old man, he played nine,
He played nick nack on a line.

This old man, he played ten,
He played nick nack with the hen.

Golly gee, this is good,
Will you play with me?

By Aegrus, September 2 at 7:31 am #

Kdelphi, Hillary’s wasn’t single-payer. Forcing all Americans to be beholden
to Privatized Insurance Coverage is not a good idea because they will pocket
as much money as they can from us and further tax the American people for
profit.

By KDelphi, September 2 at 7:08 am #

It is NOT better than Hillsry’s, and certainly not better than John
Edwards--BOTH covered everyone!! I greatly preferred Edwards’, which was
nationalized, as well as universal. Obama’s is neither. 15 m will stil NOT be
covered under Obama’s plan. WHICH 15 m would lbe left out? The healthy,
younmg, rich easy to insure? I dont think so.

By Aegrus, September 2 at 7:02 am #

Yeah, we know his health care plan isn’t that great, but it is better than
what McCain has to offer and what Hillary would have wanted. Please, Hedges,
don’t work against our priorities by saying we should be less enthusiastic
about a brilliant politician who enables Americans to play a more active role
in their government again. That’s enough to be enthused about.

If you want universal, single-payer health care like I do… knock on the door
of your representatives in the Congress and Senate. Make it a priority in your
local government. Make your voice heard. Otherwise, you’re just an armchair
activist with nothing valid to contribute. Please keep your cynicism to
yourself because it is self-serving.

2008 Truthdig, L.L.C.

[ Auf dieses Posting antworten ]