Re: last night -- long, sorry long

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, emerging butterfly wrote:
> On Oct 22, 12:59 am, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Oct 22, 12:08 am, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 21, 10:53 pm, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 9:46 pm, astri <inva...@example.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 8:17 pm, astri
<inva...@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> N did the best I could, since they were (or
one of them
>>>>>>>>>>> was) hysterical once home. Rocking seemed
to help, talking
>>>>>>>>>>> seemed to help. Still, there was an
underlying tension and
>>>>>>>>>>> edge there, still, a fear and sense of
hopelessness I
>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't penetrate. I'll talk more about
that below
>>>>>>>>>>> spoiler, for v*olent imagery toward self n
c*tting, sui.
>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts n stuff (I'm safe)
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> T
>>>>>>>>>>> H
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> S
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> IS
>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>>>>> P
>>>>>>>>>>> O
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> L
>>>>>>>>>>> E
>>>>>>>>>>> R
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> **
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Started reading book from library, n turns
out, I got a
>>>>>>>>>>> couple very triggering books about ab*se in
psychotherapy,
>>>>>>>>>>> that results in a denunciation (by authors)
of the whole
>>>>>>>>>>> field.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> don't you just love black-and-white thinking?
>>
>>>>>>>>> oh yes. :)
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I freaked out: For one thing, the stuff
they talked about
>>>>>>>>>>> happening to clients has happened to me
quite a bit, so I
>>>>>>>>>>> know what they're saying,
>>
>>>>>>>>>> what kind of stuff?
>>
>>>>>>>>> for example, the mental health center i try to
utilize: When
>>>>>>>>> I get immobilized, some clinicians treat me like
i'm
>>>>>>>>> immobilized because I'm not using
"skills"
>>
>>>>>>>> blech
>>
>>>>>>>>> (the other day, case manager asked me if i had
peppermint
>>>>>>>>> extract
>>
>>>>>>>> huh?
>>
>>>>>>> I told her I was dissociating a lot, and she suggested
>>>>>>> peppermint extract to help me get grounded. Which I stifled
my
>>>>>>> anger and judgments about, at the time, because I knew that
she
>>>>>>> was just trying to help and that sometimes something like
that
>>>>>>> can help....but she was not very, um, intune with the depth
of
>>>>>>> what was going on for me, obviously.
>>
>>>>>> scents to distract?
>>
>>>>> yes. in fairness, sometimes they can help, like when I was using
>>>>> good scents to get myself out of memory of bad scents. also,
>>>>> since peppermint is fairly strong, it can help mental alertness
>>>>> and such.
>>
>>>> ok
>>
>>>> but suggestion not in tune with level of distress?
>>
>>> suggestion...i don't know how to explain....suggested like I'd never
>>> thought of it?
>>
>> uck
>
> yeah. like if i just did this one thing, it'd be okay. like i'm
> choosing to be in pain, and if i would just do xyz....like the pain
> isn't warranted. like i don't think or try to get myself out of it.

like you're wallowing?

>>> (maybe is a pride thing)
>>> i did respond nicely at the time, n said, "No, but maybe I should
>>> get some", etc. etc.
>>
>> taking care of her?
>
> self-protection, more like. when feeling cornered or misunderstood, i
> get very submissive and agreeable and pretend to be helped by what
> other person says...so they'll like me more or something. or so
> they'll back the f*ck off of the stupid suggestions. don't want to
> sound defensive or prideful. don't want to get angry and be labeled
> histrionic or borderline or something.

blech
yes

> the good agreeable patient who's sensible enough to be helped so the
> helper can feel good!

more blech

> i was tired of beating my head against walls trying to explain to her
> what was happening. i realized she was useless to me, so just agreed
> to make the conversation shorter. no sense fighting what can't be
> fought.

uh huh

>>>> could she have been hoping to interrupt that somehow?
>>
>>> probly. i don't know why it upsets me.
>>
>> too simple?
>> too impersonal?
>
> yeah.
> definitely impersonal.
>
>>>>>>>>> and later told me i need to take dbt, which i've
>>>>>>>>> already taken and doesn't help me much).
>>
>>>>>>>> was this related to the peppermint extract?
>>
>>>>>>> Feels that way, which is why I jammed it into the same
>>>>>>> sentence. sorry if didn't make sense. I just know that this
>>>>>>> kind of thing is talked about in dbt, so I recognized the
dbt
>>>>>>> suggestion as the same line of thinking. what really
frustrates
>>>>>>> me is that it didn't seem to occur to her that just
deciding
>>>>>>> dbt is what I needed to make everything better might not be
>>>>>>> useful. might be really triggering, in fact. (_is_
intensely
>>>>>>> triggering!)
>>
>>>>>> blech
>>
>>>>> yeah. it's her supervisor, really, who just seems to have a sense
>>>>> of disdain for me....maybe for clients in general. I've never
>>>>> talked with the supervisor, but she seems to have opinions about
>>>>> me that are pretty generalized and not very helpful.
>>
>>>> blech again
>>
>>>>>>>>> they intermittently decide i'm borderline,
particularly if i
>>>>>>>>> disagree with anything anyone there says or get
frustrated
>>>>>>>>> with their ineptitude. it's the patient is always
wrong type
>>>>>>>>> thinking, n not being treated with dignity. anger
is always
>>>>>>>>> pathologized with these types of clinicians, and
the person
>>>>>>>>> isn't *seen.*
>>
>>>>>>>> yes   :(
>>
>>>>>>>>> other stuff: being told not multiple and treated
horribly
>>>>>>>>> (once put in seclusion room for days cuz lil part
was crying
>>>>>>>>> in hospital, it was mostly punishment by an angry
nurse that
>>>>>>>>> i wouldn't concede her point that i could stop
crying at
>>>>>>>>> will)
>>
>>>>>>>> oh, uck
>>
>>>>>>>> once in hospital
>>>>>>>> we got put into seclusion
>>>>>>>> because we were desperate to see pshrink
>>>>>>>> and wanted to sit in hallway outside his office
>>>>>>>> so we could ask him to see us when he came out
>>>>>>>> (didn't trust nurses to tell him)
>>>>>>>> so because we wouldn't get up they put us in seclusion
>>>>>>>> stupid control freaks
>>
>>>>>>> that's awful. their own handbooks say seclusion is to be
used
>>>>>>> only if the patient cannot be stopped in other ways from
>>>>>>> hurting self or others. you were doing neither of those
things;
>>>>>>> they were using it as punishment for control.
>>
>>>>>> yup
>>
>>>>>>> socks.
>>>>>>> those types of encounters have left such an imprint of
shame
>>>>>>> and dehumanization on me that they contribute much to sui.
>>>>>>> wishes.
>>
>>>>>> :(
>>
>>>>>>> has it been that way for you?
>>
>>>>>> not really
>>>>>> was long time ago
>>
>>>>> somehow you didn't internalize the experience to mean something
>>>>> bad about you the way I do. I wonder what accounts for the
>>>>> difference.
>>
>>>> dunno
>>
>>> great help _you_ are! *Grins*
>>
>> heh
>>
>>>>>> never going to be in hospital again
>>>>>> if we can possibly help it
>>
>>>>> yes. glad. we try to avoid too....been doing good job of it past
>>>>> few months, i think. always relieved in the end when can avoid
>>>>> hospital.
>>
>>>> good
>>
>>>>> this time would be even worse if went --- no therapist to come do
>>>>> therapy with me and take me home.
>>
>>>> :(
>>
>>>>>>>>> as a result people do and say things under the
guise of
>>>>>>>>> clinician or psychologist or whatever that would
never be
>>>>>>>>> deemed acceptable otherwise, and victims' accounts
are
>>>>>>>>> disregarded or even laughed at cuz we're just
"nonhumans"
>>>>>>>>> anyway, n can be treated any way people like, cuz
don't have
>>>>>>>>> real feelings, cuz "mentally ill"
>>
>>>>>>>> :(
>>
>>>>>>>> happens sometimes
>>>>>>>> especially in hospitals
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> n it brought up this outrage in me, n
insider saying, "I
>>>>>>>>>>> want to hurt somebody; I want to hurt
somebody" (I've
>>>>>>>>>>> _never_ heard an alter say this!), n
pictured punching
>>>>>>>>>>> people who hurt us, n worse. Not nice
imagery. Scared me a
>>>>>>>>>>> bit, feeling this angry at people.
shouldn't. not allowed.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> anger can be healthy
>>>>>>>>>> if you never allow it, then it's deeper when it
appears
>>
>>>>>>>>> yes true.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing that scared me was that _I_
want to be a
>>>>>>>>>>> counselor, n lots of what the book said is
*true* about how
>>>>>>>>>>> counseling sometimes (the book argues
always) puts "client"
>>>>>>>>>>> in one-down position, n how ab*sive and
degrading that is.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>>> is why counselors have to be really careful and
respectful
>>
>>>>>>>>> yup. n i am.
>>
>>>>>>> i should say, i try to be.
>>
>>>>>> understood
>>
>>>>>>>>>> cuz there is that power differential
>>>>>>>>>> but doesn't have to be degrading
>>>>>>>>>> with our good tpists, we haven't felt this
>>
>>>>>>>>> yup. agreed.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> N I just raced....Oh my gosh, I use all my
"therapeutic
>>>>>>>>>>> techniques" as a defense, n it's not
right, n I can't be a
>>>>>>>>>>> counselor, n *I'm* an ab*ser for wanting to
be, n on and on.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> using techniques as a defense may be needed
sometimes
>>>>>>>>>> but isn't abusive to be counselor
>>>>>>>>>> unless you're an abusive counselor
>>
>>>>>>>>> n i'm not.
>>
>>>>>>> should say, i try not to be. i think anyone in the field
who
>>>>>>> looks deeply into herself sees that she's oversimplified
>>>>>>> something or not clearly seen a client as well as she
should
>>>>>>> have. i meant -- because i am self-searching and such,
probly
>>>>>>> not abusive counselor as a rule.
>>
>>>>>> prolly
>>
>>>>> desperately hope not abusive.
>>>>> will work in if find out i am.
>>>>> might not mean quitting whole profession (I talk as if I'm *in*
>>>>> the profession!)
>>
>>>> is very important to have very good grasp of own stuff
>>>> and not to be easily triggered
>>>> and to be very good at observing self
>>>> and understanding self
>>>> before trying to do counseling
>>>> especially with folks with similar issues
>>
>>> yes
>>> and still easily triggered
>>> often able to suspend when in helping role, though
>>
>> this can be deceptive
>
> ahh. like i could be responding based on the triggers, but not be
> aware, which can be more dangerous than knowing one is actively
> triggered, yes?

yes

not until too late

>>> good at observing self n knowing own self and triggers
>>> still need work on my own vulnerability being evident to predators,
>>> cuz still happens
>>> n need more training n stuff
>>> n more control of triggers
>>
>>>> we would never work with folks whose issues are close to our own
>>>> even tho we'd have the advantage of deeper understanding
>>>> is too dangerous for us to jump to understanding of us rather than
>>>> client
>>
>>> good point
>>
>>>> we try never to do assessment of kid we think might have abuse
>>>> issues
>>>> if we suspect, we give assessment away to someone else to do
>>>> is important to know limits
>>>> is best way to avoid doing harm
>>
>>> very true
>>> good wisdom
>>> thanks
>>
>> better to be more conservative to protect
>> than to do harm
>
> never want to do harm, never ever ever. that's why we've been
> avoiding the human services field for the past few years. knew wasn't
> ready. knew could unintentionally harm. you think we still could
> lots?

depends on job duties
and level of supervision
and whether folks would be vulnerable to abandonment
if you became unable to continue because of your own stuff

-- astri

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