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Re: last night -- long, sorry long

On Oct 22, 12:59 am, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Oct 22, 12:08 am, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, emerging butterfly wrote:
> >>> On Oct 21, 10:53 pm, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> >>>>> On Oct 21, 9:46 pm, astri <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Oct 21, 8:17 pm, astri <inva...@example.com>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, emerging butterfly wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> N did the best I could, since they were (or
one of them was)
> >>>>>>>>> hysterical once home. Rocking seemed to help,
talking seemed
> >>>>>>>>> to help. Still, there was an underlying
tension and edge
> >>>>>>>>> there, still, a fear and sense of hopelessness
I couldn't
> >>>>>>>>> penetrate. I'll talk more about that below
spoiler, for
> >>>>>>>>> v*olent imagery toward self n c*tting, sui.
thoughts n stuff
> >>>>>>>>> (I'm safe)
>
> >>>>>>>>> T
> >>>>>>>>> H
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> S
>
> >>>>>>>>> IS
> >>>>>>>>> A
> >>>>>>>>> S
> >>>>>>>>> P
> >>>>>>>>> O
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> L
> >>>>>>>>> E
> >>>>>>>>> R
>
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> *
>
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> **
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> **
>
> >>>>>>>>> Started reading book from library, n turns
out, I got a
> >>>>>>>>> couple very triggering books about ab*se in
psychotherapy,
> >>>>>>>>> that results in a denunciation (by authors) of
the whole
> >>>>>>>>> field.
>
> >>>>>>>> don't you just love black-and-white thinking?
>
> >>>>>>> oh yes. :)
>
> >>>>>>>>> I freaked out: For one thing, the stuff they
talked about
> >>>>>>>>> happening to clients has happened to me quite
a bit, so I
> >>>>>>>>> know what they're saying,
>
> >>>>>>>> what kind of stuff?
>
> >>>>>>> for example, the mental health center i try to
utilize: When I
> >>>>>>> get immobilized, some clinicians treat me like i'm
immobilized
> >>>>>>> because I'm not using "skills"
>
> >>>>>> blech
>
> >>>>>>> (the other day, case manager asked me if i had
peppermint extract
>
> >>>>>> huh?
>
> >>>>> I told her I was dissociating a lot, and she suggested
peppermint
> >>>>> extract to help me get grounded. Which I stifled my anger and
> >>>>> judgments about, at the time, because I knew that she was just
> >>>>> trying to help and that sometimes something like that can
> >>>>> help....but she was not very, um, intune with the depth of
what
> >>>>> was going on for me, obviously.
>
> >>>> scents to distract?
>
> >>> yes. in fairness, sometimes they can help, like when I was using
> >>> good scents to get myself out of memory of bad scents. also, since
> >>> peppermint is fairly strong, it can help mental alertness and such.
>
> >> ok
>
> >> but suggestion not in tune with level of distress?
>
> > suggestion...i don't know how to explain....suggested like I'd never
> > thought of it?
>
> uck

yeah. like if i just did this one thing, it'd be okay. like i'm
choosing to be in pain, and if i would just do xyz....like the pain
isn't warranted. like i don't think or try to get myself out of it.

>
> > (maybe is a pride thing)
> > i did respond nicely at the time, n said, "No, but maybe I should get
> > some", etc. etc.
>
> taking care of her?

self-protection, more like. when feeling cornered or misunderstood, i
get very submissive and agreeable and pretend to be helped by what
other person says...so they'll like me more or something. or so
they'll back the f*ck off of the stupid suggestions. don't want to
sound defensive or prideful. don't want to get angry and be labeled
histrionic or borderline or something.
the good agreeable patient who's sensible enough to be helped so the
helper can feel good!
i was tired of beating my head against walls trying to explain to her
what was happening. i realized she was useless to me, so just agreed
to make the conversation shorter. no sense fighting what can't be
fought.

>
> >> could she have been hoping to interrupt that somehow?
>
> > probly. i don't know why it upsets me.
>
> too simple?
> too impersonal?

yeah.
definitely impersonal.

>
> >>>>>>> and later told me i need to take dbt, which i've
> >>>>>>> already taken and doesn't help me much).
>
> >>>>>> was this related to the peppermint extract?
>
> >>>>> Feels that way, which is why I jammed it into the same
sentence.
> >>>>> sorry if didn't make sense. I just know that this kind of
thing
> >>>>> is talked about in dbt, so I recognized the dbt suggestion as
the
> >>>>> same line of thinking. what really frustrates me is that it
> >>>>> didn't seem to occur to her that just deciding dbt is what I
> >>>>> needed to make everything better might not be useful. might be
> >>>>> really triggering, in fact. (_is_ intensely triggering!)
>
> >>>> blech
>
> >>> yeah. it's her supervisor, really, who just seems to have a sense
> >>> of disdain for me....maybe for clients in general. I've never
> >>> talked with the supervisor, but she seems to have opinions about me
> >>> that are pretty generalized and not very helpful.
>
> >> blech again
>
> >>>>>>> they intermittently decide i'm borderline,
particularly if i
> >>>>>>> disagree with anything anyone there says or get
frustrated with
> >>>>>>> their ineptitude. it's the patient is always wrong
type
> >>>>>>> thinking, n not being treated with dignity. anger is
always
> >>>>>>> pathologized with these types of clinicians, and the
person
> >>>>>>> isn't *seen.*
>
> >>>>>> yes   :(
>
> >>>>>>> other stuff: being told not multiple and treated
horribly (once
> >>>>>>> put in seclusion room for days cuz lil part was crying
in
> >>>>>>> hospital, it was mostly punishment by an angry nurse
that i
> >>>>>>> wouldn't concede her point that i could stop crying at
will)
>
> >>>>>> oh, uck
>
> >>>>>> once in hospital
> >>>>>> we got put into seclusion
> >>>>>> because we were desperate to see pshrink
> >>>>>> and wanted to sit in hallway outside his office
> >>>>>> so we could ask him to see us when he came out
> >>>>>> (didn't trust nurses to tell him)
> >>>>>> so because we wouldn't get up they put us in seclusion
> >>>>>> stupid control freaks
>
> >>>>> that's awful. their own handbooks say seclusion is to be used
> >>>>> only if the patient cannot be stopped in other ways from
hurting
> >>>>> self or others. you were doing neither of those things; they
were
> >>>>> using it as punishment for control.
>
> >>>> yup
>
> >>>>> socks.
> >>>>> those types of encounters have left such an imprint of shame
and
> >>>>> dehumanization on me that they contribute much to sui. wishes.
>
> >>>> :(
>
> >>>>> has it been that way for you?
>
> >>>> not really
> >>>> was long time ago
>
> >>> somehow you didn't internalize the experience to mean something bad
> >>> about you the way I do. I wonder what accounts for the difference.
>
> >> dunno
>
> > great help _you_ are! *Grins*
>
> heh
>
> >>>> never going to be in hospital again
> >>>> if we can possibly help it
>
> >>> yes. glad. we try to avoid too....been doing good job of it past
> >>> few months, i think. always relieved in the end when can avoid
> >>> hospital.
>
> >> good
>
> >>> this time would be even worse if went --- no therapist to come do
> >>> therapy with me and take me home.
>
> >> :(
>
> >>>>>>> as a result people do and say things under the guise
of
> >>>>>>> clinician or psychologist or whatever that would never
be
> >>>>>>> deemed acceptable otherwise, and victims' accounts are
> >>>>>>> disregarded or even laughed at cuz we're just
"nonhumans"
> >>>>>>> anyway, n can be treated any way people like, cuz
don't have
> >>>>>>> real feelings, cuz "mentally ill"
>
> >>>>>> :(
>
> >>>>>> happens sometimes
> >>>>>> especially in hospitals
>
> >>>>>>>>> n it brought up this outrage in me, n insider
saying, "I want
> >>>>>>>>> to hurt somebody; I want to hurt
somebody" (I've _never_
> >>>>>>>>> heard an alter say this!), n pictured punching
people who
> >>>>>>>>> hurt us, n worse. Not nice imagery. Scared me
a bit, feeling
> >>>>>>>>> this angry at people. shouldn't. not allowed.
>
> >>>>>>>> anger can be healthy
> >>>>>>>> if you never allow it, then it's deeper when it
appears
>
> >>>>>>> yes true.
>
> >>>>>>>>> The other thing that scared me was that _I_
want to be a
> >>>>>>>>> counselor, n lots of what the book said is
*true* about how
> >>>>>>>>> counseling sometimes (the book argues always)
puts "client"
> >>>>>>>>> in one-down position, n how ab*sive and
degrading that is.
>
> >>>>>>>> can be
> >>>>>>>> is why counselors have to be really careful and
respectful
>
> >>>>>>> yup. n i am.
>
> >>>>> i should say, i try to be.
>
> >>>> understood
>
> >>>>>>>> cuz there is that power differential
> >>>>>>>> but doesn't have to be degrading
> >>>>>>>> with our good tpists, we haven't felt this
>
> >>>>>>> yup. agreed.
>
> >>>>>>>>> N I just raced....Oh my gosh, I use all my
"therapeutic
> >>>>>>>>> techniques" as a defense, n it's not
right, n I can't be a
> >>>>>>>>> counselor, n *I'm* an ab*ser for wanting to
be, n on and on.
>
> >>>>>>>> using techniques as a defense may be needed
sometimes
> >>>>>>>> but isn't abusive to be counselor
> >>>>>>>> unless you're an abusive counselor
>
> >>>>>>> n i'm not.
>
> >>>>> should say, i try not to be. i think anyone in the field who
> >>>>> looks deeply into herself sees that she's oversimplified
> >>>>> something or not clearly seen a client as well as she should
> >>>>> have. i meant -- because i am self-searching and such, probly
not
> >>>>> abusive counselor as a rule.
>
> >>>> prolly
>
> >>> desperately hope not abusive.
> >>> will work in if find out i am.
> >>> might not mean quitting whole profession (I talk as if I'm *in* the
> >>> profession!)
>
> >> is very important to have very good grasp of own stuff
> >> and not to be easily triggered
> >> and to be very good at observing self
> >> and understanding self
> >> before trying to do counseling
> >> especially with folks with similar issues
>
> > yes
> > and still easily triggered
> > often able to suspend when in helping role, though
>
> this can be deceptive

ahh. like i could be responding based on the triggers, but not be
aware, which can be more dangerous than knowing one is actively
triggered, yes?

>
> > good at observing self n knowing own self and triggers
> > still need work on my own vulnerability being evident to predators,
> > cuz still happens
> > n need more training n stuff
> > n more control of triggers
>
> >> we would never work with folks whose issues are close to our own
> >> even tho we'd have the advantage of deeper understanding
> >> is too dangerous for us to jump to understanding of us rather than
> >> client
>
> > good point
>
> >> we try never to do assessment of kid we think might have abuse
> >> issues
> >> if we suspect, we give assessment away to someone else to do
> >> is important to know limits
> >> is best way to avoid doing harm
>
> > very true
> > good wisdom
> > thanks
>
> better to be more conservative to protect
> than to do harm

never want to do harm, never ever ever. that's why we've been avoiding
the human services field for the past few years. knew wasn't ready.
knew could unintentionally harm. you think we still could lots?

>
> >>>>>>>> we need counselors
> >>>>>>>> every culture has counselors
> >>>>>>>> tho they don't call them that always or use them
exactly the
> >>>>>>>> same
> >>>>>>>> but every culture has them
>
> >>>>>>> good context. this author is referring somewhat to
> >>>>>>> psychoanalytic treatment where only the analyst can
interpret
> >>>>>>> the patient, n the
>
> >>>>>> psychoanalytic treatment is mostly passe in the us
> >>>>>> is infantalizing
> >>>>>> and only works with those who are already basically
healthy
> >>>>>> yavis patient
>
> >>>>> really? if already healthy, then why subject themselves to
> >>>>> something infantilizing. not sound good.
>
> >>>> neurotic
> >>>> not that bad
>
> >>> but we're neurotic! n by lots of surface accounts, articulate,
> >>> amenable to therapy, healthy in lots of ways, not that bad.
>
> >> heh
>
> >>>>>> young
> >>>>>> attractive
>
> >>>>> what's young and attractive got to do with it?
> >>>>> (Just asking)
>
> >>>> both make it easier to exist in the world
>
> >>> and easier for male analyst to like?
>
> >> oh, prolly
> >> female, too
>
> > good point. there's often an immediate unspoken bias in people's mind
> > when they meet very attractive people that they're more intelligent,
> > etc., then their less attractive counterparts.
> > (we'll never be able to cash in on that benefit, so better be
> > smart!:)
>
> heh
>
> -- astri
>
>   =====================
>   to email send to astri
>   =====================
>       at volcano dot org
>   =====================

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